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I think from a practical perspective the biggest advantage of the European system is that every household gets three phases. This is I guess likely the reason y

I think from a practical perspective the biggest advantage of the European system is that every household gets three phases. This is I guess likely the reason you have many more gas stoves in the US than in Europe where you can easily install a high power electric/induction stove instead.

chaz6 7y ago
In the UK we usually only get a single phase. They will alternate the the phases down the street to balance the 3 phases.
- tomatocracy 7y ago
  To add - the standard UK domestic supply for new installations is 100A single phase and voltage is 240V at 50Hz (despite the standard saying 230V, the tolerance is 230+10%/-6% and the UK never changed its actual supply voltage) so this is plenty for most houses even if they are electrically heated and have all-electric cooking appliances.
swebs 7y ago
Nah, natural gas is just so much cheaper than electricity in the USA.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  Even with the maintenance of the gas lines? Unless you use gas for something else (e.g. heating) then you have an opportunity to stop paying expensive gas line maintenance costs and use that money to buy more expensive electricity. That's what's happening in some city centers in Europe as fewer and fewer residents use gas, those that do need to share the maintenance costs for the gas network, which makes it more and more expensive to keep using it so there is a spiral of people leaving. In stockholm it's now north of $200/year for a studio apartment even before buying any gas. You get quite a bit of cooking electricity for $200!
  - nervousvarun 7y ago
    Good point, I'm sure the gas line maintenance is passed through the monthly bill. Typically though gas is used in the U.S. for more than cooking (stoves): heating water. More and more people are shifting to on-demand tankless heaters but even with those the perception is gas is better than electric.
  - Conan_Kudo 7y ago
    A home with natural gas stoves often has natural gas for heating too. Usually the latter is what enables the former, because there's no incentive if you're already using electric heating.
    - cpwright 7y ago
      In our area (NY, north of the city) if you can't get natural gas, you heat with oil not electric. Plenty of people also get propane just for the gas stove. The yearly propane tank rental is about $100, since you'll never meet the minimums for a free tank with just a stove.
      - alkonaut 7y ago
        > if you can't get natural gas, you heat with oil not electric. Is this the case for new construction too? Why aren't heat pumps used these days?
        Majromax 7y ago
        > Why aren't heat pumps used these days? They lose efficiency in very cold conditions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pumps#In_cold_climates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pumps#In_cold_...). Albany, New York (https://www.weather.gov/aly/SpecialDataALB https://www.weather.gov/aly/SpecialDataALB) has an official all-time record low of -28F (-33C), which is well below the point where air-source heat pumps have any meaningful efficiency advantage over even resistive heating. Heat-pump solutions that use the ground as their heatsink are much more expensive because of the excavation required.
- mcv 7y ago
  Same here, and in fact in countries that have some sort of access to gas. It's the same reason heating is usually done with gas rather than electricity. So this is not the reason why the US has less induction stoves. In fact, cooking isn't a big expenditure on your energy bill. Heating is, and yet plenty of homes have central (gas) heating yet still have an induction stove. Simply because it's possible and convenient. If the US indeed has less induction stoves than the EU, the fact that it would be less convenient due to the electrical wiring of American homes is a more likely explanation than gas prices.
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    > If the US indeed has less induction stoves than the EU, the fact that it would be less convenient due to the electrical wiring of American homes is a more likely explanation than gas prices. Any house wired for electric cooking appliances should be able to handle an induction stove. Electric stoves are fairly common, but induction stoves are rare.
    - mcv 7y ago
      > Electric stoves are fairly common, but induction stoves are rare. That suggests the cause is inertia. Plain electric stoves are very impractical, but they've been around for a long time.
      - vonmoltke 7y ago
        It may also be cost of the appliance (rather than the fuel). The few induction stoves I was able to find are quite a bit more expensive than equivalent-output gas and resistive electric stoves. Not sure how much that is driven by inertia either, though.
        close04 7y ago
        Induction stoves cost a bit more because the BoM and complexity are higher than the regular radiant stove. But since this is the kind of appliance in use for years it's possible you can make up for the initial investment with the lower operating costs and maintenance.
- jandrewrogers 7y ago
  Supporting this model, the Pacific Northwest traditionally uses electricity for everything because it is extremely inexpensive. This part of North America has seemingly limitless hydroelectric power, and consequently having some of the lowest electricity rates in the world. At $0.08/kWh, Washington not only has the cheapest electricity in the US, it is also much cheaper than any part of Europe. It makes sense that local building would take advantage of that.
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    Natural gas is still popular in colder parts of the country that have cheap electricity, because it's much cheaper to heat with.
    - jandrewrogers 7y ago
      Fair point. The PNW has both mild winters and mild summers, which moderates energy requirements for temperature control.
  - Aloha 7y ago
    I was paying a whole lot more than 8c kWh in Seattle, my rates are actually lower in Texas, and my new roommate was paying less in New Mexico.
seszett 7y ago
Electric stoves in Europe (well, the UK, France and Belgium at least) run on standard two-phase 240V. Few houses have tri-phase power installed, you have to pay a premium for that, and get a tri-phase meter installed.
- kuschku 7y ago
  Pretty much every electric stove in Germany runs on tri-phase 380V. The only one I’ve ever seen that doesn’t was in a student dorm.
  - panpanna 7y ago
    In EU most new ovens are 240V, partially thanks to the efficiency improvements of hot air ovens. Still, they used to be 3-phase not long ago so OP is also correct.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - kuschku 7y ago
      A typical german stove uses 11kW for the stove + oven combination. Pretty much every stove/oven combination uses 380V 30A for power nowadays. e.g. look at pretty much any Miele stove/oven combination.
      - panpanna 7y ago
        Are you sure? 11kW is a huge number. Just checked one random German oven (AEG) that specifies typical usage around 1kw and max at 4.8kW. Electrolux which is known for energy efficiency claims max 3kW for a similar oven. Maybe stove is responsible for the rest?
        benjymo 7y ago
        For my relatively cheap Ikea stove, each cooking plate of my induction stove uses around 1.5 to 2 kW with "Booster" to 2.5 and 3.5 kW. It's connected to three phases and ground through three separate fuses. The oven is separate and connected with a standard plug though.
_trampeltier 7y ago
In switzerland we have a plug called "T 15". You can use it for just single phase or three phase. It is often used in workshops and places like this. I'm not sure, I think just the swiss plug system has such a dual use plug. https://www.google.com/search?q=steckdose%20t15 https://www.google.com/search?q=steckdose%20t15
- ploek 7y ago
  In Sweden Perilex seems to be somewhat common for stoves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perilex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perilex
  - _trampeltier 7y ago
    It looks a bit the same, but is not 1x230V or 3x400V. With T15 you can plug in a normal just L-N plug (like a normal USB charger), a L-N-PE plug (normal computer) or a 3L-N-PE plug.
GordonS 7y ago
> This is I guess likely the reason you have many more gas stoves in the US than in Europe Is this true? Either way, gas stoves are so much nicer to cook on than electric hobs - electric ones take forever to heat up and cool down compared to gas.
- consp 7y ago
  Pure resistive heated stoves yes, most inductive ones are actually quite fast and nice to use.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - jwilliams 7y ago
    I was pretty against electric stoves, but just moved into a place with a modern induction setup. Extremely impressed. It can boil water amazingly quickly and the exact heat control is great. I do miss the ability to char things, but not massively.
    - saberdancer 7y ago
      Few other benefits of induction are easier cleanup (you can wipe it down) and no long term "soot" accumulation around the stove.
      - vonmoltke 7y ago
        > Few other benefits of induction are easier cleanup (you can wipe it down) With the downside that the surface is more fragile and susceptible to permanent damage, particularly if you have heavy cookware. > no long term "soot" accumulation around the stove I have lived extensively with propane, natural gas, and electric ranges/cooktops. I have never seen a "soot" accumulation, or really any difference in discoloration between any of those fuels.
        7y ago
wil421 7y ago
I seriously doubt the reason US households have gas stoves is power related. It is much cheaper in the US and you can find reserves local to the US.
- mcv 7y ago
  Gas is cheaper in Netherland too. Many people are still switching to induction, because it's possible, convenient and we need to get rid of gas.
mcv 7y ago
Not every household gets 3 phases. When we bought our current house, we were surprised to discover we only got 1 * 35A, instead of the more common 3 * 25A. And having only one phase was a problem, considering we wanted an induction stove.
- close04 7y ago
  Countries that have historically relied on gas or other such power sources for heating and stoves most likely have single phase for homes. You're more likely to get three phase in countries where electrical stoves, ovens, and even house heating are more common (Germany being the most obvious example).
  - wolfgke 7y ago
    > You're more likely to get three phase in countries where electrical stoves, ovens, and even house heating are more common (Germany being the most obvious example). As I wrote in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20799176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20799176, in Germany, electrical house heating is very uncommon.
    - close04 7y ago
      > electrical stoves, ovens, and even house heating are more common My point is that it's still more common than other countries, especially south and east of Germany, as I made very clear above (that even was there to help make the point). And in this comment I didn't forget to mention electric stoves and ovens which are very much a common thing. According to the spec my stove (radiant) and oven together top up at 9.6KW usable, not just adding numbers for each burner. That's double or triple what you'd get out of any regular 240V wiring (usually ~2.5KW/10A, sometimes ~3.6KW/15A, haven't seen 4KW 240V sockets so far). With an induction stove you could go lower overall but almost all electric ovens out there are in the 3-3.5KW range. I imagine it's the reason every single house I lived in had 380V.
  - mcv 7y ago
    Well, my experience is Netherland, where we have 3-phase current, gas stoves, gas heating, and electrical ovens. And people are increasingly switching to induction stoves simply because they can and induction is nice. When I was a kid in the 1970s, we did have a gas oven, but soon replaced it with an electrical oven that still had a gas stove on top. The simple fact is that electrical ovens are safer and more practical than gas ovens, while gas stoves were more practical than electrical stoves before induction stoves became available. So having access to both 3-phase current and gas, we make our choices based on what's convenient rather than on what we're forced to use.
GuB-42 7y ago
In France only few people have 3 phases. But I think the a reason why high power appliances are more common in Europe is simply because the voltage is higher. Double the voltage means you can pass double the power over the same wires.
- masklinn 7y ago
  Yeah. Electric kettles are fine instruments in europe while they're infuriating in the US. That's not always a pure positive though: as kettles work fine I've never seen a thermo pot in europe.
- user5994461 7y ago
  In France, old houses have 3 phases. There are 3 phases going into the house from the street poles, and you can catch them at some plugs in the house depending if and where they were wired to (the only home appliance that can use 3 phases is electric stoves). This used to be the "standard" setup until somewhere in the 20th century when it changed to single phase. Now there is only one phase going to homes.
  - GuB-42 7y ago
    I remember my grandfather who was a carpenter. He had a 3-phase woodworking machine in his garage. It was in the late 80s. He needed a special installation for it, and possibly a more expensive subscription. He later changed it for a single phase machine, partly for that reason. And then he moved, and he now has only one phase like everyone else.
- stetrain 7y ago
  Most US houses have 240 (by combining two offset phases of 120v) but that is generally only available at special plugs installed for the range/oven and clothes dryer, not throughout the house.
  - alerighi 7y ago
    Nowadays with devices with switching mode power a lot of appliances even sold in the US can accept voltages in the range of 100-240V, and typically these power supplies are more efficient if they are run at 240V. Why in new installations in the US homes don't you put 240V outlet everywhere? For me it would make sense to do that, for example if you have to plug in a computer, or TV, or practically everything modern.
elorant 7y ago
In Greece three phasing power is optional and very few houses choose it. Normal power output for a house is at 8KWh which is enough to operate most appliances simultaneously. A typical electrical stove won't consume more than 2-2,5KWh.
mikeash 7y ago
Split phase 240V is plenty for stoves.
rpiguy 7y ago
Actually many homes were built all electric in the US in the era between 1960-1980 because the nation was promised limitless, cheap electricity from Nuclear power, etc. In the 80s oil and gas prices plummeted in the US, but electrical power prices did not, and it then became cheaper for gas and oil. The proliferation of gas in the United States is also probably due to less-regulated environment. Gas companies are profitable and expanded their networks and distribution to expand. I would guess fewer environmental regulations and building regulations make it easier to expand a than in other countries.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > The proliferation of gas in the United States is also probably due to less-regulated environment Gas is expensive to transport. The United States has a lot of gas and a lot of transport infrastructure. As a result, gas is cheap. The same is not true on continental Europe.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    Also for a long time gas was a waste product from oil production. So if you were close to oil fields, like California and the gulf states then nat gas was really cheap.
  - stevekemp 7y ago
    In the UK gas-cookers, and even gas-based boilers/heating, are extremely common. I moved to Finland, here gas is an oddity, and not so common at all. I really miss the speed of a gas-based hob.
    - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
      Check out induction tops. They've been beating out gas in some speed-based things, namely boiling water. When I reach the point of needing to buy a new stove, I'm going for this. As a bonus, many of the pots and pans I have will work on it.
      - 7y ago
13of40 7y ago
I can only speak for the west coast of the US, but in my experience, having lived in probably 35 or 40 different places, nearly every house has dedicated 240 volt outlets for things like ovens and clothes dryers. Where natural gas is available, it's primarily used for central heating and running the water heater. That isn't to say there aren't gas stoves here, but they're not especially common compared to electric ones.
- unclewaltr 7y ago
  I agree, most appliances in the US run on 240 volts, but this is separate from 3 phase. Most households only wire up single phase electrics. Both can support 120v or 240v appliances, but appliances designed for 3 phase are more efficient in their energy use and less prone to overload your breaker.
  - 13of40 7y ago
    Not trying to be snarky, but it seems like for an oven to be less efficient, it would need to be releasing energy as something other than heat.
    - monocasa 7y ago
      Or it doesn't insulate as well and has to inject more energy to maintain a certain temperature.
    - unclewaltr 7y ago
      I was not referring to the efficiency of a specific appliance. I didn't mention an oven in my comment. Three phase distribution is more efficient and mechanical appliances designed for three phase can take advantage of that.
duxup 7y ago
I always assumed it was cost. Electricity for heating my home, hot water is expensive compared to gas. May as well run a line to the stove while I'm at it. As for ovens I find it to be more of a "variety" in the US rather than just gas or just electric.
billfruit 7y ago
I think consumer grade induction stoves commonly found in Asia work well in a single phase.
tumetab1 7y ago
In Portugal a three phase connection is rare due to costs. The electrical bill is structure so that you pay for the peak power consumption (kVA's) and how it's structured to favor 1 phase connections. 1 phase kVA options: 1,15; 2,30; 3,45; 4,60; 5,75; 6,90; .... 3 phase kVA options: 6,90; 10,35; .... The kVAs levels increase by 5 Amps on each phase so you get much more levels on 1 phase connections.
Yaggo 7y ago
Europe is broad definition. E.g in Nordic countries tri-phase is ubiquitous, but that’s not true for whole continent, as there is lot of variance by country.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
Don't most people in North America get at least 2 phases so they can hook up a split-phase 240V electric stove and dryer?
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  We get single phase 240V that is delivered to most electrical sockets as split phase 120V. For dryers, stoves, ovens, air conditioners, etc, it is wired to be the full 240V. Given how many newer electronic appliances auto-switch when presented a higher voltage, I wonder if it will become more popular to connect some wall sockets with full phase 240V. It's an easy retrofit in many cases. Kinda depends on circuit density however.
vageli 7y ago
> I think from a practical perspective the biggest advantage of the European system is that every household gets three phases. This is I guess likely the reason you have many more gas stoves in the US than in Europe where you can easily install a high power electric/induction stove instead. Why would you prefer an electric stove over a gas stove though? I was under the impression that many places in Europe did not use gas in the home because there was no abundance of natural gas and no easy means of distributing it. At least in rural Greece in the mountains, my theory makes sense and most people will haul propane for home use. Even in America in more rural places many homes have external propane tanks for heating and cooking. EDIT: really unclear why this was downvoted. Because I asked about the use case for electrical stoves?
- avar 7y ago
  At the risk of getting into the tabs v.s. spaces debate of cooking: Electrical stoves are good enough, electric induction stoves (unlike the old electric stoves) can near-instantly change their heat output, which was the main benefit of gas over electric. Induction stoves are also much easier to clean compared to gas, since the entire heating surface is flat glass[1]. In The Netherlands there's an established gas infrastructure, but when renovating many people are opting to switch to induction over gas, even though they have the ability to keep using gas. Those homes will usually keep a gas-powered boiler for central heating, which will be the only remaining household use of gas. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking
rootusrootus 7y ago
Gas ranges in the US are seen as premium. So lots of new construction in the mid+ tier comes with that by default. I don't know of anybody who chose gas because it was cheaper (a range uses so little gas that sometimes it does not even register on the meter, if that is your only gas appliance). Almost everyone chooses it because historically the typical electric range was the dog slow kind and gas is so much nicer to cook with.
_1tan 7y ago
Not every household. E.g. in Berlin it is still quite common to only have a single phase in older flats. Source: I work at a metering company in Germany.
tssva 7y ago
Power for electric stoves is easily provided for in the US. Power to the household is delivered via a split phase system. Transformers feeding households have a 240V secondary winding which is tapped at each end and then again in the center where it is connected to a grounded neutral. This results in a feed to the household consisting of two 120V lines which are 180 degrees out of sync and a single neutral. Dedicated 240V circuits which connect to both incoming 120V feeds are used for large higher power appliances such as stoves and electric dryers. For example the current national electrical code calls for stoves to be connected to dedicated 240V 50A circuits. Gas stoves and ovens are used more in the US because in many parts of the US natural gas is cheap and because gas stoves are considered to be superior to traditional electric stoves for cooking because the the heat is more evenly distributed across the surface of the pan, fine adjustment of temperature can be made visually and adjustments to temperature occur more quickly than with electric stoves. Even in areas where gas is not cheap people often choose gas stoves because of this. For whatever reason induction stoves never really took off in the US. Induction cooking is mostly limited to small single or dual burner countertop units.
jaclaz 7y ago
>This is I guess likely the reason you have many more gas stoves in the US than in Europe where you can easily install a high power electric/induction stove instead. You'll need to redefine Europe. Loosely in some countries electricity is "cheap" (example France), whilst in many other ones it is "expensive" (example Denmark, Germany). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#/media/File:Cijena_električne_energije_2017.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#/media/Fil... And of course prices need to be compared with actual income level, 16.4 in Norway is very different from 16.1 in Slovenia (Net average monthly wage of Euro 3,452 vs. 1,128). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... If you prefer, in Italy - as an example - we actually can have the three phases and relatively high amounts of power, but we simply cannot afford it (and thus most of heating and cooking is gas based).

chaz6 7y ago

In the UK we usually only get a single phase. They will alternate the the phases down the street to balance the 3 phases.

tomatocracy 7y ago
To add - the standard UK domestic supply for new installations is 100A single phase and voltage is 240V at 50Hz (despite the standard saying 230V, the tolerance is 230+10%/-6% and the UK never changed its actual supply voltage) so this is plenty for most houses even if they are electrically heated and have all-electric cooking appliances.

swebs 7y ago

Nah, natural gas is just so much cheaper than electricity in the USA.

alkonaut 7y ago
Even with the maintenance of the gas lines? Unless you use gas for something else (e.g. heating) then you have an opportunity to stop paying expensive gas line maintenance costs and use that money to buy more expensive electricity. That's what's happening in some city centers in Europe as fewer and fewer residents use gas, those that do need to share the maintenance costs for the gas network, which makes it more and more expensive to keep using it so there is a spiral of people leaving. In stockholm it's now north of $200/year for a studio apartment even before buying any gas. You get quite a bit of cooking electricity for $200!
- nervousvarun 7y ago
  Good point, I'm sure the gas line maintenance is passed through the monthly bill. Typically though gas is used in the U.S. for more than cooking (stoves): heating water. More and more people are shifting to on-demand tankless heaters but even with those the perception is gas is better than electric.
- Conan_Kudo 7y ago
  A home with natural gas stoves often has natural gas for heating too. Usually the latter is what enables the former, because there's no incentive if you're already using electric heating.
  - cpwright 7y ago
    In our area (NY, north of the city) if you can't get natural gas, you heat with oil not electric. Plenty of people also get propane just for the gas stove. The yearly propane tank rental is about $100, since you'll never meet the minimums for a free tank with just a stove.
    - alkonaut 7y ago
      > if you can't get natural gas, you heat with oil not electric. Is this the case for new construction too? Why aren't heat pumps used these days?
      - Majromax 7y ago
        > Why aren't heat pumps used these days? They lose efficiency in very cold conditions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pumps#In_cold_climates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pumps#In_cold_...). Albany, New York (https://www.weather.gov/aly/SpecialDataALB https://www.weather.gov/aly/SpecialDataALB) has an official all-time record low of -28F (-33C), which is well below the point where air-source heat pumps have any meaningful efficiency advantage over even resistive heating. Heat-pump solutions that use the ground as their heatsink are much more expensive because of the excavation required.
mcv 7y ago
Same here, and in fact in countries that have some sort of access to gas. It's the same reason heating is usually done with gas rather than electricity. So this is not the reason why the US has less induction stoves. In fact, cooking isn't a big expenditure on your energy bill. Heating is, and yet plenty of homes have central (gas) heating yet still have an induction stove. Simply because it's possible and convenient. If the US indeed has less induction stoves than the EU, the fact that it would be less convenient due to the electrical wiring of American homes is a more likely explanation than gas prices.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > If the US indeed has less induction stoves than the EU, the fact that it would be less convenient due to the electrical wiring of American homes is a more likely explanation than gas prices. Any house wired for electric cooking appliances should be able to handle an induction stove. Electric stoves are fairly common, but induction stoves are rare.
  - mcv 7y ago
    > Electric stoves are fairly common, but induction stoves are rare. That suggests the cause is inertia. Plain electric stoves are very impractical, but they've been around for a long time.
    - vonmoltke 7y ago
      It may also be cost of the appliance (rather than the fuel). The few induction stoves I was able to find are quite a bit more expensive than equivalent-output gas and resistive electric stoves. Not sure how much that is driven by inertia either, though.
      - close04 7y ago
        Induction stoves cost a bit more because the BoM and complexity are higher than the regular radiant stove. But since this is the kind of appliance in use for years it's possible you can make up for the initial investment with the lower operating costs and maintenance.
jandrewrogers 7y ago
Supporting this model, the Pacific Northwest traditionally uses electricity for everything because it is extremely inexpensive. This part of North America has seemingly limitless hydroelectric power, and consequently having some of the lowest electricity rates in the world. At $0.08/kWh, Washington not only has the cheapest electricity in the US, it is also much cheaper than any part of Europe. It makes sense that local building would take advantage of that.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  Natural gas is still popular in colder parts of the country that have cheap electricity, because it's much cheaper to heat with.
  - jandrewrogers 7y ago
    Fair point. The PNW has both mild winters and mild summers, which moderates energy requirements for temperature control.
- Aloha 7y ago
  I was paying a whole lot more than 8c kWh in Seattle, my rates are actually lower in Texas, and my new roommate was paying less in New Mexico.

seszett 7y ago

Electric stoves in Europe (well, the UK, France and Belgium at least) run on standard two-phase 240V. Few houses have tri-phase power installed, you have to pay a premium for that, and get a tri-phase meter installed.

kuschku 7y ago
Pretty much every electric stove in Germany runs on tri-phase 380V. The only one I’ve ever seen that doesn’t was in a student dorm.
- panpanna 7y ago
  In EU most new ovens are 240V, partially thanks to the efficiency improvements of hot air ovens. Still, they used to be 3-phase not long ago so OP is also correct.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - kuschku 7y ago
    A typical german stove uses 11kW for the stove + oven combination. Pretty much every stove/oven combination uses 380V 30A for power nowadays. e.g. look at pretty much any Miele stove/oven combination.
    - panpanna 7y ago
      Are you sure? 11kW is a huge number. Just checked one random German oven (AEG) that specifies typical usage around 1kw and max at 4.8kW. Electrolux which is known for energy efficiency claims max 3kW for a similar oven. Maybe stove is responsible for the rest?
      - benjymo 7y ago
        For my relatively cheap Ikea stove, each cooking plate of my induction stove uses around 1.5 to 2 kW with "Booster" to 2.5 and 3.5 kW. It's connected to three phases and ground through three separate fuses. The oven is separate and connected with a standard plug though.

_trampeltier 7y ago

In switzerland we have a plug called "T 15". You can use it for just single phase or three phase. It is often used in workshops and places like this. I'm not sure, I think just the swiss plug system has such a dual use plug. https://www.google.com/search?q=steckdose%20t15 https://www.google.com/search?q=steckdose%20t15

ploek 7y ago
In Sweden Perilex seems to be somewhat common for stoves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perilex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perilex
- _trampeltier 7y ago
  It looks a bit the same, but is not 1x230V or 3x400V. With T15 you can plug in a normal just L-N plug (like a normal USB charger), a L-N-PE plug (normal computer) or a 3L-N-PE plug.

GordonS 7y ago

> This is I guess likely the reason you have many more gas stoves in the US than in Europe Is this true? Either way, gas stoves are so much nicer to cook on than electric hobs - electric ones take forever to heat up and cool down compared to gas.

consp 7y ago
Pure resistive heated stoves yes, most inductive ones are actually quite fast and nice to use.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jwilliams 7y ago
  I was pretty against electric stoves, but just moved into a place with a modern induction setup. Extremely impressed. It can boil water amazingly quickly and the exact heat control is great. I do miss the ability to char things, but not massively.
  - saberdancer 7y ago
    Few other benefits of induction are easier cleanup (you can wipe it down) and no long term "soot" accumulation around the stove.
    - vonmoltke 7y ago
      > Few other benefits of induction are easier cleanup (you can wipe it down) With the downside that the surface is more fragile and susceptible to permanent damage, particularly if you have heavy cookware. > no long term "soot" accumulation around the stove I have lived extensively with propane, natural gas, and electric ranges/cooktops. I have never seen a "soot" accumulation, or really any difference in discoloration between any of those fuels.
      - 7y ago

wil421 7y ago

I seriously doubt the reason US households have gas stoves is power related. It is much cheaper in the US and you can find reserves local to the US.

mcv 7y ago
Gas is cheaper in Netherland too. Many people are still switching to induction, because it's possible, convenient and we need to get rid of gas.

mcv 7y ago

Not every household gets 3 phases. When we bought our current house, we were surprised to discover we only got 1 * 35A, instead of the more common 3 * 25A. And having only one phase was a problem, considering we wanted an induction stove.

close04 7y ago
Countries that have historically relied on gas or other such power sources for heating and stoves most likely have single phase for homes. You're more likely to get three phase in countries where electrical stoves, ovens, and even house heating are more common (Germany being the most obvious example).
- wolfgke 7y ago
  > You're more likely to get three phase in countries where electrical stoves, ovens, and even house heating are more common (Germany being the most obvious example). As I wrote in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20799176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20799176, in Germany, electrical house heating is very uncommon.
  - close04 7y ago
    > electrical stoves, ovens, and even house heating are more common My point is that it's still more common than other countries, especially south and east of Germany, as I made very clear above (that even was there to help make the point). And in this comment I didn't forget to mention electric stoves and ovens which are very much a common thing. According to the spec my stove (radiant) and oven together top up at 9.6KW usable, not just adding numbers for each burner. That's double or triple what you'd get out of any regular 240V wiring (usually ~2.5KW/10A, sometimes ~3.6KW/15A, haven't seen 4KW 240V sockets so far). With an induction stove you could go lower overall but almost all electric ovens out there are in the 3-3.5KW range. I imagine it's the reason every single house I lived in had 380V.
- mcv 7y ago
  Well, my experience is Netherland, where we have 3-phase current, gas stoves, gas heating, and electrical ovens. And people are increasingly switching to induction stoves simply because they can and induction is nice. When I was a kid in the 1970s, we did have a gas oven, but soon replaced it with an electrical oven that still had a gas stove on top. The simple fact is that electrical ovens are safer and more practical than gas ovens, while gas stoves were more practical than electrical stoves before induction stoves became available. So having access to both 3-phase current and gas, we make our choices based on what's convenient rather than on what we're forced to use.

GuB-42 7y ago

In France only few people have 3 phases. But I think the a reason why high power appliances are more common in Europe is simply because the voltage is higher. Double the voltage means you can pass double the power over the same wires.

masklinn 7y ago
Yeah. Electric kettles are fine instruments in europe while they're infuriating in the US. That's not always a pure positive though: as kettles work fine I've never seen a thermo pot in europe.
user5994461 7y ago
In France, old houses have 3 phases. There are 3 phases going into the house from the street poles, and you can catch them at some plugs in the house depending if and where they were wired to (the only home appliance that can use 3 phases is electric stoves). This used to be the "standard" setup until somewhere in the 20th century when it changed to single phase. Now there is only one phase going to homes.
- GuB-42 7y ago
  I remember my grandfather who was a carpenter. He had a 3-phase woodworking machine in his garage. It was in the late 80s. He needed a special installation for it, and possibly a more expensive subscription. He later changed it for a single phase machine, partly for that reason. And then he moved, and he now has only one phase like everyone else.
stetrain 7y ago
Most US houses have 240 (by combining two offset phases of 120v) but that is generally only available at special plugs installed for the range/oven and clothes dryer, not throughout the house.
- alerighi 7y ago
  Nowadays with devices with switching mode power a lot of appliances even sold in the US can accept voltages in the range of 100-240V, and typically these power supplies are more efficient if they are run at 240V. Why in new installations in the US homes don't you put 240V outlet everywhere? For me it would make sense to do that, for example if you have to plug in a computer, or TV, or practically everything modern.

elorant 7y ago

In Greece three phasing power is optional and very few houses choose it. Normal power output for a house is at 8KWh which is enough to operate most appliances simultaneously. A typical electrical stove won't consume more than 2-2,5KWh.

mikeash 7y ago

Split phase 240V is plenty for stoves.

rpiguy 7y ago

Actually many homes were built all electric in the US in the era between 1960-1980 because the nation was promised limitless, cheap electricity from Nuclear power, etc. In the 80s oil and gas prices plummeted in the US, but electrical power prices did not, and it then became cheaper for gas and oil. The proliferation of gas in the United States is also probably due to less-regulated environment. Gas companies are profitable and expanded their networks and distribution to expand. I would guess fewer environmental regulations and building regulations make it easier to expand a than in other countries.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> The proliferation of gas in the United States is also probably due to less-regulated environment Gas is expensive to transport. The United States has a lot of gas and a lot of transport infrastructure. As a result, gas is cheap. The same is not true on continental Europe.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  Also for a long time gas was a waste product from oil production. So if you were close to oil fields, like California and the gulf states then nat gas was really cheap.
- stevekemp 7y ago
  In the UK gas-cookers, and even gas-based boilers/heating, are extremely common. I moved to Finland, here gas is an oddity, and not so common at all. I really miss the speed of a gas-based hob.
  - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
    Check out induction tops. They've been beating out gas in some speed-based things, namely boiling water. When I reach the point of needing to buy a new stove, I'm going for this. As a bonus, many of the pots and pans I have will work on it.
    - 7y ago

13of40 7y ago

I can only speak for the west coast of the US, but in my experience, having lived in probably 35 or 40 different places, nearly every house has dedicated 240 volt outlets for things like ovens and clothes dryers. Where natural gas is available, it's primarily used for central heating and running the water heater. That isn't to say there aren't gas stoves here, but they're not especially common compared to electric ones.

unclewaltr 7y ago
I agree, most appliances in the US run on 240 volts, but this is separate from 3 phase. Most households only wire up single phase electrics. Both can support 120v or 240v appliances, but appliances designed for 3 phase are more efficient in their energy use and less prone to overload your breaker.
- 13of40 7y ago
  Not trying to be snarky, but it seems like for an oven to be less efficient, it would need to be releasing energy as something other than heat.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    Or it doesn't insulate as well and has to inject more energy to maintain a certain temperature.
  - unclewaltr 7y ago
    I was not referring to the efficiency of a specific appliance. I didn't mention an oven in my comment. Three phase distribution is more efficient and mechanical appliances designed for three phase can take advantage of that.

duxup 7y ago

I always assumed it was cost. Electricity for heating my home, hot water is expensive compared to gas. May as well run a line to the stove while I'm at it. As for ovens I find it to be more of a "variety" in the US rather than just gas or just electric.

billfruit 7y ago

I think consumer grade induction stoves commonly found in Asia work well in a single phase.

tumetab1 7y ago

In Portugal a three phase connection is rare due to costs. The electrical bill is structure so that you pay for the peak power consumption (kVA's) and how it's structured to favor 1 phase connections. 1 phase kVA options: 1,15; 2,30; 3,45; 4,60; 5,75; 6,90; .... 3 phase kVA options: 6,90; 10,35; .... The kVAs levels increase by 5 Amps on each phase so you get much more levels on 1 phase connections.

Yaggo 7y ago

Europe is broad definition. E.g in Nordic countries tri-phase is ubiquitous, but that’s not true for whole continent, as there is lot of variance by country.

bryanlarsen 7y ago

Don't most people in North America get at least 2 phases so they can hook up a split-phase 240V electric stove and dryer?

rootusrootus 7y ago
We get single phase 240V that is delivered to most electrical sockets as split phase 120V. For dryers, stoves, ovens, air conditioners, etc, it is wired to be the full 240V. Given how many newer electronic appliances auto-switch when presented a higher voltage, I wonder if it will become more popular to connect some wall sockets with full phase 240V. It's an easy retrofit in many cases. Kinda depends on circuit density however.

vageli 7y ago

> I think from a practical perspective the biggest advantage of the European system is that every household gets three phases. This is I guess likely the reason you have many more gas stoves in the US than in Europe where you can easily install a high power electric/induction stove instead. Why would you prefer an electric stove over a gas stove though? I was under the impression that many places in Europe did not use gas in the home because there was no abundance of natural gas and no easy means of distributing it. At least in rural Greece in the mountains, my theory makes sense and most people will haul propane for home use. Even in America in more rural places many homes have external propane tanks for heating and cooking. EDIT: really unclear why this was downvoted. Because I asked about the use case for electrical stoves?

avar 7y ago
At the risk of getting into the tabs v.s. spaces debate of cooking: Electrical stoves are good enough, electric induction stoves (unlike the old electric stoves) can near-instantly change their heat output, which was the main benefit of gas over electric. Induction stoves are also much easier to clean compared to gas, since the entire heating surface is flat glass[1]. In The Netherlands there's an established gas infrastructure, but when renovating many people are opting to switch to induction over gas, even though they have the ability to keep using gas. Those homes will usually keep a gas-powered boiler for central heating, which will be the only remaining household use of gas. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_cooking

rootusrootus 7y ago

Gas ranges in the US are seen as premium. So lots of new construction in the mid+ tier comes with that by default. I don't know of anybody who chose gas because it was cheaper (a range uses so little gas that sometimes it does not even register on the meter, if that is your only gas appliance). Almost everyone chooses it because historically the typical electric range was the dog slow kind and gas is so much nicer to cook with.

_1tan 7y ago

Not every household. E.g. in Berlin it is still quite common to only have a single phase in older flats. Source: I work at a metering company in Germany.

tssva 7y ago

Power for electric stoves is easily provided for in the US. Power to the household is delivered via a split phase system. Transformers feeding households have a 240V secondary winding which is tapped at each end and then again in the center where it is connected to a grounded neutral. This results in a feed to the household consisting of two 120V lines which are 180 degrees out of sync and a single neutral. Dedicated 240V circuits which connect to both incoming 120V feeds are used for large higher power appliances such as stoves and electric dryers. For example the current national electrical code calls for stoves to be connected to dedicated 240V 50A circuits. Gas stoves and ovens are used more in the US because in many parts of the US natural gas is cheap and because gas stoves are considered to be superior to traditional electric stoves for cooking because the the heat is more evenly distributed across the surface of the pan, fine adjustment of temperature can be made visually and adjustments to temperature occur more quickly than with electric stoves. Even in areas where gas is not cheap people often choose gas stoves because of this. For whatever reason induction stoves never really took off in the US. Induction cooking is mostly limited to small single or dual burner countertop units.

jaclaz 7y ago

>This is I guess likely the reason you have many more gas stoves in the US than in Europe where you can easily install a high power electric/induction stove instead. You'll need to redefine Europe. Loosely in some countries electricity is "cheap" (example France), whilst in many other ones it is "expensive" (example Denmark, Germany). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#/media/File:Cijena_električne_energije_2017.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#/media/Fil... And of course prices need to be compared with actual income level, 16.4 in Norway is very different from 16.1 in Slovenia (Net average monthly wage of Euro 3,452 vs. 1,128). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... If you prefer, in Italy - as an example - we actually can have the three phases and relatively high amounts of power, but we simply cannot afford it (and thus most of heating and cooking is gas based).