8 ms·

I'd be interested to know how much of this has to do with the dilution of the meaning of 'leather' in terms of consumer goods. The market is flooded with garba

I'd be interested to know how much of this has to do with the dilution of the meaning of 'leather' in terms of consumer goods. The market is flooded with garbage products, which are produced by slicing a thin veneer of leather and gluing it to a plastic backing, which is then sold as "bonded leather." It's gotten so bad that full-grain leather products are exceedingly rare. Since 90% of "leather" products are such awful garbage, it's not surprising to me that consumers have abandoned the sector en masse.

eloff 7y ago
I bought a pricey belt from Kenneth Kole made of this crap without knowing better. It was garbage within months. I learned my lesson and bought a proper leather belt from who knows what brand from Amazon for a fraction of the price, it's doing great years later. My parents had a horrible experience with made in china "leather" chairs. They had to reupholster them within months. You have to be very careful buying leather now and do hours of product/brand research to ensure you're not getting a lemon. At my hourly rate, that costs me way more than the product itself for anything less than large furniture items. I'm a lot less likely to buy leather goods as a result.
- cnst 7y ago
  The brand names are the worst in this regard. I think pretty much any Kenneth Kole leather item I have ever seen in the last 10 years has been fake leather; definitely do stay away from those.
xahrepap 7y ago
I had a really awesome leather belt that I got when I was 15. I stopped wearing it when I was 30 because my weight finally out outgrew the belt. Still have it. It's no worse today than it was when I got it as a teen. I go through about a belt a year now. Because I always seem to end up with this crap you describe. Even if I try to avoid it. Guess I need to do a better job looking... Or just lose some weight so I can use that same belt for another 15years.
- ghaff 7y ago
  The last time I got a couple of new belts it was from a little craft-type belt place in one of the London markets. They're great. You might also have luck checking out cobblers. Some of them make belts and other leather goods on the side.
- deelowe 7y ago
  Check out Tanner goods. Definitely buy it for life belts, wallets, etc.
  - benj111 7y ago
    Life belts? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-belts/s?k=Life+belts https://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-belts/s?k=Life+belts Belts for life??
    - seltzered_ 7y ago
      The person's referring to the general term "buy it for life" - products that last a lifetime or longer. (https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/)
  - Izkata 7y ago
    Just FYI, if you do mean what the sibling replies say, a "life belt" is a flotation device in the shape of a belt. Refers to a "life jacket".
    - deelowe 7y ago
      "buy it for life", belt. Not buy it for, "life belt."
      - Izkata 7y ago
        The list makes it really hard to read that way with parens. It parses like this to me: Definitely buy it for (life belts, wallets, etc).
Clubber 7y ago
There is a grading system for leather. "Genuine" leather is a deceptive marketing term designed to sell shit leather as quality. https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/ https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/
- cnst 7y ago
  > https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/ https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/ Thanks for this; I had no idea that Genuine Leather wasn't a good thing, but I did have my suspicions as so many products seem to use the designation where the quality doesn't seem to be there. Will be making sure to look for full-grain leather from now on (ironically, I thought that "Genuine" designation was better).
  - ValentineC 7y ago
    Adding on: I've been looking for wallet suggestions on Reddit, and chanced upon North Star Leather's posts on how "Grades of Leather" was made up for marketing purposes [1][2]. I think those articles, and his Reddit comments [3], are worth a read to get an insight into how leather workers see this. [1] https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2018/05/31/the-grades-of-leather-hierarchy-youve-probably-read-about-is-a-myth/ https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2018/05/31/the-grades-of-... [2] https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2017/05/16/genuine-leather-has-become-a-4-letter-word/ https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2017/05/16/genuine-leathe... [3] https://old.reddit.com/user/nstarleather/comments/ https://old.reddit.com/user/nstarleather/comments/
- imgabe 7y ago
  Yeah, there are still plenty of quality leather products out there, you just have to look for "full grain leather".
- pvarangot 7y ago
  That doesn't work, I'm not sure it ever did. Yeah if something says full grain then it's full grain, but if you want corrected grain calf no grading system can help you. Corrected grain calf is what most people wanting a leather jacket that doesn't look like a biker or a statement piece will be thinking about.
rexgallorum2 7y ago
A few years ago, I bought a hand made leather wallet from a leatherworker in Germany. It has a beautiful patina now and is in perfect shape. Quality matters.
- developer2 7y ago
  Wallets are a very good example of an industry overrun with inferior "leather-based" products. "Genuine Leather" may as well be the brand name of the shittiest fake leather sold on Earth, because I'd bet that a majority (>50%) of "Genuine Leather" products on the market are complete bullshit. The cost and brand name of a product mean nothing. You can buy a $10,000+ "Genuine Leather" wallet, claimed to be "handmade" by a top-5 wallet manufacturer brand name... and chances are it's all lies. They sell too many wallets for them to be handmade, so the fact is they use sewing machines with the cheapest labour they can get away with. The company is physically incapable of tracing the chain of custody of their leather; they'll tell you to your face it's "genuine" (bonus words for "locally sourced/farmed"), but that's a game of Operator/Telephone 10 players deep to the point where nobody remembers the truth. tldr; Most leather, including "genuine leather", is anything but. That includes the largest brand names; in fact even more so, because the demand for their products is too high to secure any kind of guarantee of quality regarding sourced materials. How many large-scale manufacturers of leather products are willing to legally sign on the dotted line that they can prove which cow and farm any given wallet came from? Exactly, and that's 21st century capitalism at its core.
ngold 7y ago
When I sold furniture 15 years ago, one of the selling lines was buying leather now is a great investment since the meat industry puts so much leather on the market it was super cheap. Not sure if it's still true or if it ever was.
mifreewil 7y ago
This is a great point. I'd be interested in seeing some data where words/definitions/"generic trademarks" are better protected. For example, I remember reading something within the last few years about the FDA considering cracking down on companies using "milk" in non-dairy products like almond milk, soy milk, etc. It's almost a tragedy of the commons where there is a generic trademark that isn't protected, or maybe in the opposite case where everyone colludes to dilute the generic trademark to increase profit margins. Like using "blueberries" that aren't real blueberries but just made up of sugar and some artificial ingredients.
namibj 7y ago
I unfortunately prefer the economics of a self-strenghtening friction "buckle" on my belt. Until recently I used a simple fabric belt which had thicker (2mm) warp on the edges than in the middle. The yarn was about half the diameter I'd guess compared to typical backpack straps, but cotton or something less rough than what these typical straps are made of. It was about 2 inch wide. The "buckle" was just a pair of 3mm non-stainless steel wire formed into rectangles (2inch by 1.2 inch), which the belt was pulled through and about an inch of overlapping belt was sewn together almost aggressively. Usage was "wrap around hip", "pull free end from the back through both rectangles", "split the rectangles a bit from each other", "loop the free end around the outer rectangle, and thread it back between the incoming strap and the other rectangle", "hold buckle-side end of belt with one hand to the side (still contacting your body), while pulling the free end the other direction (tangentially to your skin at the point the 'buckle' touches)". This results in the looped-around rectangle being pulled against the other one, which squishes the belt between them _and_ creates a slight bump the incoming belt is going around before the rectangle side it wraps tightly. If the belt isn't too smooth, this is self-locking while under force (your body is elastic), and to unlock, you just twist the rectangles around your the long axis of your spine to decrease the bump from the looped-back part of the belt. You can do that by bracing the hand with the outside of the intermediate phalanges of middle and ring fingee, while reaching with thumb and index finger to pull the steel rectangle's corners with a slight pinching force (that is just trying to shorten the larger dimension of the rectangle). This means that loosening to drop pants that drop to the knees if the belt is gone is a 3 μstep action done blind with one hand (touch belt/buckle with supporting phalanges, pinch corners, twist and pull away from your body to create some slack. This takes half a second. My new buckle is a case the loose end is threaded through, which has guide slots in the sides facing your nose and toes (respectively) for a pin that is self-locking by pinching the belt between it and the inside of the side of the case facing away from you. This requires two hands to reduce load on the buckle, followed by pinching the pin where it pokes it's rounded ends through the slots to pull it out of the self-locking end of the slot. I preferred the old one, but how to find a good belt like that? Also, it tends to look tattered/unprofessional with the friction-damaged fabric belt and the non-shiny (not obviously rusty) steel wire rectangles. If anyone knows a source for such at sane pricing, I'd appreciate sharing of knowledge.

eloff 7y ago

I bought a pricey belt from Kenneth Kole made of this crap without knowing better. It was garbage within months. I learned my lesson and bought a proper leather belt from who knows what brand from Amazon for a fraction of the price, it's doing great years later. My parents had a horrible experience with made in china "leather" chairs. They had to reupholster them within months. You have to be very careful buying leather now and do hours of product/brand research to ensure you're not getting a lemon. At my hourly rate, that costs me way more than the product itself for anything less than large furniture items. I'm a lot less likely to buy leather goods as a result.

cnst 7y ago
The brand names are the worst in this regard. I think pretty much any Kenneth Kole leather item I have ever seen in the last 10 years has been fake leather; definitely do stay away from those.

xahrepap 7y ago

I had a really awesome leather belt that I got when I was 15. I stopped wearing it when I was 30 because my weight finally out outgrew the belt. Still have it. It's no worse today than it was when I got it as a teen. I go through about a belt a year now. Because I always seem to end up with this crap you describe. Even if I try to avoid it. Guess I need to do a better job looking... Or just lose some weight so I can use that same belt for another 15years.

ghaff 7y ago
The last time I got a couple of new belts it was from a little craft-type belt place in one of the London markets. They're great. You might also have luck checking out cobblers. Some of them make belts and other leather goods on the side.
deelowe 7y ago
Check out Tanner goods. Definitely buy it for life belts, wallets, etc.
- benj111 7y ago
  Life belts? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-belts/s?k=Life+belts https://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-belts/s?k=Life+belts Belts for life??
  - seltzered_ 7y ago
    The person's referring to the general term "buy it for life" - products that last a lifetime or longer. (https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/)
- Izkata 7y ago
  Just FYI, if you do mean what the sibling replies say, a "life belt" is a flotation device in the shape of a belt. Refers to a "life jacket".
  - deelowe 7y ago
    "buy it for life", belt. Not buy it for, "life belt."
    - Izkata 7y ago
      The list makes it really hard to read that way with parens. It parses like this to me: Definitely buy it for (life belts, wallets, etc).

Clubber 7y ago

There is a grading system for leather. "Genuine" leather is a deceptive marketing term designed to sell shit leather as quality. https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/ https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/

cnst 7y ago
> https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/ https://joojoobs.com/leather-grades/ Thanks for this; I had no idea that Genuine Leather wasn't a good thing, but I did have my suspicions as so many products seem to use the designation where the quality doesn't seem to be there. Will be making sure to look for full-grain leather from now on (ironically, I thought that "Genuine" designation was better).
- ValentineC 7y ago
  Adding on: I've been looking for wallet suggestions on Reddit, and chanced upon North Star Leather's posts on how "Grades of Leather" was made up for marketing purposes [1][2]. I think those articles, and his Reddit comments [3], are worth a read to get an insight into how leather workers see this. [1] https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2018/05/31/the-grades-of-leather-hierarchy-youve-probably-read-about-is-a-myth/ https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2018/05/31/the-grades-of-... [2] https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2017/05/16/genuine-leather-has-become-a-4-letter-word/ https://nstarleather.wordpress.com/2017/05/16/genuine-leathe... [3] https://old.reddit.com/user/nstarleather/comments/ https://old.reddit.com/user/nstarleather/comments/
imgabe 7y ago
Yeah, there are still plenty of quality leather products out there, you just have to look for "full grain leather".
pvarangot 7y ago
That doesn't work, I'm not sure it ever did. Yeah if something says full grain then it's full grain, but if you want corrected grain calf no grading system can help you. Corrected grain calf is what most people wanting a leather jacket that doesn't look like a biker or a statement piece will be thinking about.

rexgallorum2 7y ago

A few years ago, I bought a hand made leather wallet from a leatherworker in Germany. It has a beautiful patina now and is in perfect shape. Quality matters.

developer2 7y ago
Wallets are a very good example of an industry overrun with inferior "leather-based" products. "Genuine Leather" may as well be the brand name of the shittiest fake leather sold on Earth, because I'd bet that a majority (>50%) of "Genuine Leather" products on the market are complete bullshit. The cost and brand name of a product mean nothing. You can buy a $10,000+ "Genuine Leather" wallet, claimed to be "handmade" by a top-5 wallet manufacturer brand name... and chances are it's all lies. They sell too many wallets for them to be handmade, so the fact is they use sewing machines with the cheapest labour they can get away with. The company is physically incapable of tracing the chain of custody of their leather; they'll tell you to your face it's "genuine" (bonus words for "locally sourced/farmed"), but that's a game of Operator/Telephone 10 players deep to the point where nobody remembers the truth. tldr; Most leather, including "genuine leather", is anything but. That includes the largest brand names; in fact even more so, because the demand for their products is too high to secure any kind of guarantee of quality regarding sourced materials. How many large-scale manufacturers of leather products are willing to legally sign on the dotted line that they can prove which cow and farm any given wallet came from? Exactly, and that's 21st century capitalism at its core.

ngold 7y ago

When I sold furniture 15 years ago, one of the selling lines was buying leather now is a great investment since the meat industry puts so much leather on the market it was super cheap. Not sure if it's still true or if it ever was.

mifreewil 7y ago

This is a great point. I'd be interested in seeing some data where words/definitions/"generic trademarks" are better protected. For example, I remember reading something within the last few years about the FDA considering cracking down on companies using "milk" in non-dairy products like almond milk, soy milk, etc. It's almost a tragedy of the commons where there is a generic trademark that isn't protected, or maybe in the opposite case where everyone colludes to dilute the generic trademark to increase profit margins. Like using "blueberries" that aren't real blueberries but just made up of sugar and some artificial ingredients.

namibj 7y ago

I unfortunately prefer the economics of a self-strenghtening friction "buckle" on my belt. Until recently I used a simple fabric belt which had thicker (2mm) warp on the edges than in the middle. The yarn was about half the diameter I'd guess compared to typical backpack straps, but cotton or something less rough than what these typical straps are made of. It was about 2 inch wide. The "buckle" was just a pair of 3mm non-stainless steel wire formed into rectangles (2inch by 1.2 inch), which the belt was pulled through and about an inch of overlapping belt was sewn together almost aggressively. Usage was "wrap around hip", "pull free end from the back through both rectangles", "split the rectangles a bit from each other", "loop the free end around the outer rectangle, and thread it back between the incoming strap and the other rectangle", "hold buckle-side end of belt with one hand to the side (still contacting your body), while pulling the free end the other direction (tangentially to your skin at the point the 'buckle' touches)". This results in the looped-around rectangle being pulled against the other one, which squishes the belt between them _and_ creates a slight bump the incoming belt is going around before the rectangle side it wraps tightly. If the belt isn't too smooth, this is self-locking while under force (your body is elastic), and to unlock, you just twist the rectangles around your the long axis of your spine to decrease the bump from the looped-back part of the belt. You can do that by bracing the hand with the outside of the intermediate phalanges of middle and ring fingee, while reaching with thumb and index finger to pull the steel rectangle's corners with a slight pinching force (that is just trying to shorten the larger dimension of the rectangle). This means that loosening to drop pants that drop to the knees if the belt is gone is a 3 μstep action done blind with one hand (touch belt/buckle with supporting phalanges, pinch corners, twist and pull away from your body to create some slack. This takes half a second. My new buckle is a case the loose end is threaded through, which has guide slots in the sides facing your nose and toes (respectively) for a pin that is self-locking by pinching the belt between it and the inside of the side of the case facing away from you. This requires two hands to reduce load on the buckle, followed by pinching the pin where it pokes it's rounded ends through the slots to pull it out of the self-locking end of the slot. I preferred the old one, but how to find a good belt like that? Also, it tends to look tattered/unprofessional with the friction-damaged fabric belt and the non-shiny (not obviously rusty) steel wire rectangles. If anyone knows a source for such at sane pricing, I'd appreciate sharing of knowledge.