14 ms·

> We did have a dark age, after the Romans after all, which likewise produced little (not none) new math. Use of the term "dark age" is both dramatically inacc

> We did have a dark age, after the Romans after all, which likewise produced little (not none) new math. Use of the term "dark age" is both dramatically inaccurate in many ways [1] and totally elides everything that happened outside of Europe, such as the establishment of algebra as an independent field of mathematical study (AD 800 in Baghdad), the creation of algebraic geometry (AD 1070 in Persia), and the discovery of ways to solve high-order polynomial equations (approximately AD 1200 in India and China). [1]: https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/01/medieval-history-why-are-the-middle-ages-often-characterized-as-dark-or-less-civilized.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/01/medieval-history-wh... Edit: Fixed a location.

notinpersia 7y ago
Wrong on Algebra’s origin. Often people will say Persia but it was in Ancient Greece and Baghdad. And the latter is not Persia and was certainly not under Persian occupation during the time of Alkhawarizmi (who is also credited for the invention of the algorithm or at least it was named after him.) The original title of his book that coined the term Algebra is Al Jabr wal Muqabala (casting and equation) Just Google it: where was algebra invented? https://www.google.com/search?q=who.invented+algebra&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari https://www.google.com/search?q=who.invented+algebra&ie=UTF-...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- shademaan 7y ago
  I mean the first result of that search for me says it was created in Baghdad, but by a Persian mathematician
  - notinpersia 7y ago
    A Muslim Persian, and Baghdad was the melting pot of the world at that time. It’s like saying a German physicist in Princeton, NJ, which is to say that America not Germany was the place where the work was valued and promoted. Likewise, Alkhawarizmi was educated in Baghdad (not in Persia) and wrote his book on Algebra in Arabic. He was not educated in Persia and he did not write his book in Farsi. If we put ethnicity ahead of national origin America can’t claim anything to its name. Period.
    - BalinKing 7y ago
      > If we put ethnicity ahead of national origin America can’t claim anything to its name. Period. It's silly to put ethnicity ahead of national origin, though, since one of America's biggest qualities it that it is a melting pot. This feels like saying "If we put learning curve ahead of type safety Haskell can't claim anything to its name. Period." It's true, but kinda vacuous.
      - asveikau 7y ago
        But that particular super-famous German who lived in Princeton, NJ is also recognized as a German physicist. To say he was already quite accomplished when he left Europe would be an understatement. Personally, I think if an immigrant of descendant of immigrants invents something prominent, it is fair for both countries to be proud of the accomplishment, and share that enthusiasm. It doesn't, or shouldn't hurt anyone. If anything, you are affirming accomplishment, not putting other people down.
        usrusr 7y ago
        > it is fair for both countries to be proud of the accomplishment Depending on the reasons for emigration, it might be fair to replace most of that pride with "dann, could have been 'ours'".
        asveikau 7y ago
        Right, well, Germany for thankfully temporary reasons wasn't exactly kind to that particular guy when he needed to flee to Princeton. But other than not repeating those horrible conditions, the next step is to simply be proud of the accomplishment. In this case of algebra, Baghdad isn't the Baghdad of back then, nor Persia the Persia of then, all the people of the era are no longer with us, so what does it matter really? But hey, algebra is pretty cool. And Arabs/Persians happen to feel good about it. Good for them.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
steve19 7y ago
Yes but the Dark Age specifically refers to Western Europe, in much the same way the disastrous impact of the Mongol Empire on Islamic scholarship, for example the burning of libraries during or after the Siege of Baghdad, barely touched Western Europe. Chances are the Mongols destroyed some advanced mathematics that took centuries to rediscover.
- kennywinker 7y ago
  The dark ages simply refers to the loss of texts. There are few surviving texts from that period, so it is “dark”. Later the term was re-branded to mean “bad time when no new science was done” but that’s a viewpoint that doesn’t fit the facts. Source (a very enjoyable read at that!): https://going-medieval.com/2017/05/26/theres-no-such-thing-as-the-dark-ages-but-ok/ https://going-medieval.com/2017/05/26/theres-no-such-thing-a...
  - Chathamization 7y ago
    I mean, there definitely seems to have been a large decline in population, economic output, political cohesion, urbanization, record keeping, trade, etc., in much of the former Roman world following the fifth/sixth century. I suppose it's a value judgement on whether one considers that a "bad time."
    - breck 7y ago
      Curious if you have any sources? I've never seen a data driven case that such a thing as the "dark ages" ever happened.
      - atroche 7y ago
        This is an excellent read: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/
        FranzFerdiNaN 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
caiocaiocaio 7y ago
That's like saying the Tang or Song eras didn't exist because they don't apply to Western Europe.
ominous 7y ago
In what way does the characterization of an European period dismiss historical periods elsewhere?
- theworld572 7y ago
  It doesn't, some people just like to get offended by things.
  - mort96 7y ago
    I find that assuming people who find something to be objectionable just do it because the "like to get offended by things" is a bit unproductive. At least hear them out and decide whether the explanation makes sense or not.
ralfd 7y ago
Slatestarcodex has a good roundup of different arguments and metrics (world lead production): https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/ > Although I sympathize with the feelings behind both positions, I say the Dark Ages happened. I think the best evidence we have suggests the fall of Rome (and the period just before) was associated with several centuries of economic and demographic decline, only reaching back to their classical level around 1000 AD. I think it was also associated with a broader intellectual and infrastructure decline, which in some specific ways and some specific fields didn’t reach back up to its Roman level until the Renaissance. I think that common sense – the sense you get when you treat the question of the Dark Age the same as any other question, and try to avoid isolated demands for rigor – says that qualifies for the phrase “Dark Age”.

notinpersia 7y ago

Wrong on Algebra’s origin. Often people will say Persia but it was in Ancient Greece and Baghdad. And the latter is not Persia and was certainly not under Persian occupation during the time of Alkhawarizmi (who is also credited for the invention of the algorithm or at least it was named after him.) The original title of his book that coined the term Algebra is Al Jabr wal Muqabala (casting and equation) Just Google it: where was algebra invented? https://www.google.com/search?q=who.invented+algebra&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari https://www.google.com/search?q=who.invented+algebra&ie=UTF-...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
shademaan 7y ago
I mean the first result of that search for me says it was created in Baghdad, but by a Persian mathematician
- notinpersia 7y ago
  A Muslim Persian, and Baghdad was the melting pot of the world at that time. It’s like saying a German physicist in Princeton, NJ, which is to say that America not Germany was the place where the work was valued and promoted. Likewise, Alkhawarizmi was educated in Baghdad (not in Persia) and wrote his book on Algebra in Arabic. He was not educated in Persia and he did not write his book in Farsi. If we put ethnicity ahead of national origin America can’t claim anything to its name. Period.
  - BalinKing 7y ago
    > If we put ethnicity ahead of national origin America can’t claim anything to its name. Period. It's silly to put ethnicity ahead of national origin, though, since one of America's biggest qualities it that it is a melting pot. This feels like saying "If we put learning curve ahead of type safety Haskell can't claim anything to its name. Period." It's true, but kinda vacuous.
    - asveikau 7y ago
      But that particular super-famous German who lived in Princeton, NJ is also recognized as a German physicist. To say he was already quite accomplished when he left Europe would be an understatement. Personally, I think if an immigrant of descendant of immigrants invents something prominent, it is fair for both countries to be proud of the accomplishment, and share that enthusiasm. It doesn't, or shouldn't hurt anyone. If anything, you are affirming accomplishment, not putting other people down.
      - usrusr 7y ago
        > it is fair for both countries to be proud of the accomplishment Depending on the reasons for emigration, it might be fair to replace most of that pride with "dann, could have been 'ours'".
        asveikau 7y ago
        Right, well, Germany for thankfully temporary reasons wasn't exactly kind to that particular guy when he needed to flee to Princeton. But other than not repeating those horrible conditions, the next step is to simply be proud of the accomplishment. In this case of algebra, Baghdad isn't the Baghdad of back then, nor Persia the Persia of then, all the people of the era are no longer with us, so what does it matter really? But hey, algebra is pretty cool. And Arabs/Persians happen to feel good about it. Good for them.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

steve19 7y ago

Yes but the Dark Age specifically refers to Western Europe, in much the same way the disastrous impact of the Mongol Empire on Islamic scholarship, for example the burning of libraries during or after the Siege of Baghdad, barely touched Western Europe. Chances are the Mongols destroyed some advanced mathematics that took centuries to rediscover.

kennywinker 7y ago
The dark ages simply refers to the loss of texts. There are few surviving texts from that period, so it is “dark”. Later the term was re-branded to mean “bad time when no new science was done” but that’s a viewpoint that doesn’t fit the facts. Source (a very enjoyable read at that!): https://going-medieval.com/2017/05/26/theres-no-such-thing-as-the-dark-ages-but-ok/ https://going-medieval.com/2017/05/26/theres-no-such-thing-a...
- Chathamization 7y ago
  I mean, there definitely seems to have been a large decline in population, economic output, political cohesion, urbanization, record keeping, trade, etc., in much of the former Roman world following the fifth/sixth century. I suppose it's a value judgement on whether one considers that a "bad time."
  - breck 7y ago
    Curious if you have any sources? I've never seen a data driven case that such a thing as the "dark ages" ever happened.
    - atroche 7y ago
      This is an excellent read: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/
      - FranzFerdiNaN 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

caiocaiocaio 7y ago

That's like saying the Tang or Song eras didn't exist because they don't apply to Western Europe.

ominous 7y ago

In what way does the characterization of an European period dismiss historical periods elsewhere?

theworld572 7y ago
It doesn't, some people just like to get offended by things.
- mort96 7y ago
  I find that assuming people who find something to be objectionable just do it because the "like to get offended by things" is a bit unproductive. At least hear them out and decide whether the explanation makes sense or not.

ralfd 7y ago

Slatestarcodex has a good roundup of different arguments and metrics (world lead production): https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/15/were-there-dark-ages/ > Although I sympathize with the feelings behind both positions, I say the Dark Ages happened. I think the best evidence we have suggests the fall of Rome (and the period just before) was associated with several centuries of economic and demographic decline, only reaching back to their classical level around 1000 AD. I think it was also associated with a broader intellectual and infrastructure decline, which in some specific ways and some specific fields didn’t reach back up to its Roman level until the Renaissance. I think that common sense – the sense you get when you treat the question of the Dark Age the same as any other question, and try to avoid isolated demands for rigor – says that qualifies for the phrase “Dark Age”.