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The Master does his job and then stops. He understands that the universe is forever out of control, and that trying to dominate events goes again

The Master does his job and then stops. He understands that the universe is forever out of control, and that trying to dominate events goes against the current of the Tao. Because he believes in himself, he doesn't try to convince others. Because he is content with himself, he doesn't need others' approval. Because he accepts himself, the whole world accepts him. — Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation (http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=30&a=Stephen+Mitchell http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=30&a=Stephen+Mitchell)

majewsky 7y ago
I don't agree with this particular articulation of this position. Stoicism says something similar, "recognize what you can affect and don't mourn over the things you cannot affect", but this quote up there is taking it too far. This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people, which would leave politics to unwise people. I would say: If you try to convince others of something, focus your energy on one thing. You won't be very convincing if you argue "I've heard that X" on 100 topics, but it will be more effective if you go deep into one topic and have a huge number of arguments on standby, with links to further resources, so that you can create a concise and focused rebuttal when that particular topic comes up.
- nurettin 7y ago
  At the time and place that quote was written, wisdom referred to leadership, or reliable old people. And leaders would use their physical, mental or monetary abilities instead of talking people down in public display. This "who can talk better to convince the crowd" business appeared more than once throughout history and was at it's peak effectiveness among the scientific community during the enlightenment phase of europe where your peers are actually as intelligent or more intelligent than you are, and your tools are empirical evidence rather than your charisma. The idea later reverted to it's hellenistic form of democratic political dialogue which is only effective as the critics of it's listeners, or the demos.
- cbanek 7y ago
  > This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people, which would leave politics to unwise people. There's convincing with words, and convincing by example. "The Master does his job" - not necessarily in private or alone. If people see someone successfully accomplishing something, they will follow. For me, seeing something work is a lot more powerful change actor than someone talking in hypotheticals trying to convince me. If you say something to someone and they are unconvinced, I doubt more prodding will convince them. Eventually they will say they are convinced, just to have you go away, and let them do it the same way. Then they become more entrenched in their beliefs, even if they know it's wrong. “Every truth has four corners. As a teacher I give you one corner, and it is for you to find the other three.” –Confucius
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 7y ago
  > leave politics to the unwise To build on quotes from the Tao Te Ching, same translation: “Throw away holiness and wisdom, and people will be a hundred times happier. Throw away morality and justice, and people will do the right thing. Throw away industry and profit, and there won't be any thieves. If these three aren't enough, just stay at the center of the circle and let all things take their course.”
- smacktoward 7y ago
  > This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people Other chapters in the Tao address this objection, by emphasizing the value of humility and leading by example over cleverness and trying to beat people into submission with words. Express yourself completely, then keep quiet. Be like the forces of nature: when it blows, there is only wind; when it rains, there is only rain; when the clouds pass, the sun shines through. (http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=23&a=Stephen+Mitchell http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=23&a=Stephen+Mitchell) Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving till the right action arises by itself? (http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=15&a=Stephen+Mitchell http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=15&a=Stephen+Mitchell) The Master doesn't talk, he acts. When his work is done, the people say, "Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!" (http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=17&a=Stephen+Mitchell http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=17&a=Stephen+Mitchell)
  - andrepd 7y ago
    >beat people into submission with words There's something oxymoronic about this phrase.
- inimino 7y ago
  > This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people No, sometimes the master's job is to teach someone something. It's just not all the time or even every time someone is wrong on the internet.
snorkasaurus 7y ago
I was going to comment, Take a look at the Dao De Jing, so I like that the top comment is a quote from it. The book is full of such pithy saying, and I often think that its advice to be like water isn't so much to go with the flow as it is that water takes in whatever people pollute it with and objects to nothing.
tony 7y ago
Amazing. That is succinct. Bookmarked. That's different from other translations: http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=Daodejing&no=30 http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=Daodejing&no=30 If Mitchell branched into more classics, that'd be very valuable to the cause.
- cbanek 7y ago
  Indeed! I have always preferred the Thomas Cleary translations (he's done a lot of chinese literature), but this Mitchell translation is REALLY good. I'm a convert.
- fragsworth 7y ago
  Online, nobody is a "master", because everyone is effectively anonymous. Your reputation for being right does not help you, and each point must stand on its own. Without the reputation, though, good arguments are often lost in the noise.
  - FearNotDaniel 7y ago
    I could be wrong here, I'm not really familiar with Taoist thinking, but the way I interpreted the quote above is that it is more about being master of oneself, i.e. in control of your emotions and reactions, rather than being a master of the subject in the eyes of others. It seems to me that the point is not to care about reputation or winning the argument because you have no control over others anyway.
    - mikekchar 7y ago
      The first part of this chapter is important for understanding the whole, I think (especially with this translation): "Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men doesn't try to force issues or defeat enemies by force of arms. For every force there is a counterforce. Violence, even well intentioned, always rebounds upon oneself." What this is saying (again IMHO ;-) ) is that in the conversation, you can't control both sides: only your side. You can't control how someone receives your words, or how they interpret them. If you try to press your case, you will cause things to occur which you may not anticipate and for which you have no control. Therefore, if you are trying to assert some idea, rather than to clarify your own understanding, then you may actually create the antagonistic forces which you were originally trying subdue (cut off one head of the hydra and be rewarded with 2 growing). This is one of the core principles in the tao te ching. The word tall has no meaning unless you compare it with short. If I draw a box and ask you if the box is tall, you can't really say. However, if I draw another box of a different size next to it, it is easy to distinguish which one is tall and which one is short. Similarly, if I draw a single box and call it "tall", you can get an idea of what "short" means -- definitely shorter than the box I drew. In than way, declaration of one thing "creates" its opposite. If you make a declaration on the internet, it can create its own opposition. People who would never have thought about the issue, may come to defend the opposite point of view. The more you push your point, the more vigorous the defense. Had you done nothing, then nothing would have been the result. In taoist literature, the middle point between 2 extremes is called the "pivot" point. There is a point between being "tall" and being "short". If I grow my short box, it will eventually cease to be short and start becoming tall (and in comparison, the other box will become short). That point is the "pivot" point. This is a concept of "utility". Normally for something to be "useful" you must transition between an extreme and the pivot point. If you have a cup that is always full of water, then it is not "useful" (in the ordinary sense of the use of a cup -- it might still be useful as a weight ;-) ). If the cup is always empty, then it is equally not useful. It only has utility when the cup transitions between being empty and full. The same is true of spokes on a bicycle wheel. Which is more important: the wires that provide tension on the outside of the wheel, or the spaces between the wires? Without the spaces, there would be no wires: only a disk. And then there would be no spokes. It's important to alternate between spoke and space. So, to answer the parent's question: from (my interpretation of) a taoist point of view, you need to be careful not to press your case because you will create your own opposition. However, if you wish to have utility in your argument, it is important to move from the pivot point, to an extreme and back to the pivot point again (possibly over and over and over again). How you do that is beyond my ability to answer ;-)
Scarbutt 7y ago
Is this Buddhism?
- wolco 7y ago
  Taoism
IAmGraydon 7y ago
What is the “job” it refers to? Is that a person’s true purpose?
- quickthrower2 7y ago
  Web developer, working on user stories for a marketing company that tracks its users, of course!
EvanAnderson 7y ago
For those on mobile: The Master does his job and then stops. He understands that the universe is forever out of control, and that trying to dominate events goes against the current of the Tao. Because he believes in himself, he doesn't try to convince others. Because he is content with himself, he doesn't need others' approval. Because he accepts himself, the whole world accepts him. — Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation (http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=30&a=Stephen+Mitchell http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=30&a=Stephen+Mitchell) reply
- lucb1e 7y ago
  Maybe a little meta, but I'd like to get a second opinion before I bother the moderators by email. (1) Does anyone know why the preformatted sections (<pre>) are limited to a width smaller than the width of the post? At all widths, it's roughly 75% of the comment's width. For mobile, this is especially bad, but I'm not sure why it's there on normal screens resolutions either. (2) You could test different widths. Right click the preformatted section and choose "inspect element". You should have the <code> block highlighted. Move to the parent element, the <pre>. On the right, you should see a max-width with some pixel value. Try setting that to "100%" (without quotes) rather than some pixel amount. Does that work fine for you? Would you like that change? It would be great if someone could somehow test this on mobile as well, but on desktop (if I resize the browser) it seems to work well.
  - notatoad 7y ago
    to get even more meta: can we please have a proper blockquote format on HN so that people stop doing this silly code formatting?
    - lucb1e 7y ago
      I'm personally fine with using the > symbol at the beginning of quoted lines, not sure why people see the need to indent every line with four spaces, that's torture for both the writer and the reader (sideways scrolling long lines, and monospaced doesn't read nicely either). But I'm fine either way, so if there is a small css change that people seem to be in favor of which I (or someone else) can propose, that's probably easier than selling a new feature to the whole community, so I'd like to focus on that here.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
buboard 7y ago
That's not how the world works today though. The delphic aphorisms similarly argue for a certain cosmic indifference. Yet the past 500 years have been guided by excessive overconfidence and an irreverent belief that man Can and should control the universe, and that others should hold that belief too. And it's been wildly successful by material measures.
- georgebarnett 7y ago
  We are no happier as a result of that success. Instead, we are on the verge of destroying our biosphere and civilisation. Material progress is useful, but hollow.
- stevens32 7y ago
  That's a material strategy, if it weren't successful by material measures it'd be just a failure in implementation. It's kind of like saying this path was the right path because we've made it pretty far on it.
jmts 7y ago
Slightly off topic, but I've followed this a little deeper and am wondering if anyone has any recommended Taoist reading? It appears this translation of Tao Te Ching is available in book form. Could anyone suggest a translation of Zhuangzi worth looking into?
- wayneftw 7y ago
  I really like "Getting Right with Tao: A Contemporary Spin on the Tao Te Ching". - http://beatrice.com/wordpress/tao-te-ching/ http://beatrice.com/wordpress/tao-te-ching/ - The original free version - http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf Here's the same verse, I think: The Masters do what needs doing and that's all they do. Do what you have to do without arrogance or pride. Get the job done and don't brag about it afterwards. Do what you have to do, not for your own benefit, but because it needs to be done. And don't do it the way you think it should be done, do it the way it needs to be done.
- aldoushuxley001 7y ago
  I recommend any Mantak Chia books. Take them with a grain of salt but there is a lot of good in there too.
- otakucode 7y ago
  Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It's the best-selling philosophy book of all time, and you really can't go wrong with it. It's not about Taoism directly. But it is. You get that with Taoist sort of things.
andrepd 7y ago
What does this mean? Never try to change anything because the world is fixed and fate is immutable? Sounds like a generic defeatist philosophy.
- darkerside 7y ago
  Try to change what you can, and recognize that the things you can't are vast, innumerable, infinite.
  - kgwxd 7y ago
    Seems glass half empty. The things you can change are vast, innumerable, infinite. Maybe less infinite, but infinite.
    - darkerside 7y ago
      What you can change is a drop in an immense ocean. And that's ok. Yo can either ignore the rest of the ocean (denial), or make peace with the fact that the tiny drop of the ocean you can control is all that really matters.
      - andrepd 7y ago
        That's (again, in my opinion) a really depressing and defeatist way to look at things, and at worst, a poetic way of saying "fuck you I got mine".
        darkerside 7y ago
        Well... it does have the advantage of being true. I'm just explaining one positive method of coping with this vast and amazing universe. Do you have another?
    - AdieuToLogic 7y ago
      Is it that the glass is half empty or recognition that a glass cannot hold everything the world can pour into it?
ngold 7y ago
Put in place ideas that work. Watch them flourish. Revisit them. To watch them crumble. Update them to learn your mistake. Educate the next generation. On where you failed. Rinse and repeat. Education is the only thing holding society together.
kgwxd 7y ago
Why would someone that believed that, ever publish it? To convince others to not try to convince others?
- nf8nnfufuu 7y ago
  I've long thought that about all those zen masters and so on. Maybe they are just happy because they get to lecture and make fun of their pupils? Maybe some real wisdom exists out there, that unfortunately involves not telling other people about it.
mieses 7y ago
Interesting. The highest ideal in western culture is truth, not harmony.
- asdff 7y ago
  Truth can make you miserable, especially when you have no agency to deal with it. Ignorance can be bliss.
sifar 7y ago
When all under heaven know beauty as beauty, There is then ugliness, When all know the good as good, There is then the not good. Therefore being and non-being give rise to each other, The difficult and easy complement each other, The long and short shape each other, The high and low lean on each other, Voices and instruments harmonize with one another, The front and rear follow upon each other. Therefore the sage manages affairs without action, Carries out teaching without speech. Ten thousand things arise and he does not initiate them, They come to be and he claims no possession of them, He works without holding on, Accomplishes without claiming merit. Because he does not claim merit, His merit does not go away. [0] This is one of the key passages. Whenever we name something, it's opposite is created too. This problem lies at the heart of categorization and knowledge. Try to avoid that. For those interested [1] has many translations of the Tao Te Ching to compare. [0] https://terebess.hu/english/tao/e-m-chen.html https://terebess.hu/english/tao/e-m-chen.html [1] https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html
naiveai 7y ago
I'd never think that the HN crowd would be into all that New Age Eastern Zen-Tao pointless philosophizing, but here we are.
- otakucode 7y ago
  Have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance? It's the best-selling philosophy book of all time. I actually only read it fairly recently, and was stunned at how relevant it was. It was written in the 70s, yet even includes a few passages about computers! It's not about zen, or about motorcycle maintenance. But they both make appearances. I'd recommend giving it a go if you get the chance. It might make Zen and Tao seem a bit less New-Agey to you. Or, you could check out my personal introduction to the Tao... The Tao of Pooh. I read it when I was a teenager, thinking it positively absurd that anyone would create a book attempting to explain an ancient school of philosophy through Winnie the Pooh. It's not absurd. I found it sublime, and the idea of taoism made a powerful impression on me and probably played a sizable role in driving me to further study of philosophy.
- multjoy 7y ago
  I’m not sure that something that pre-dates the printing press can be considered ‘new age’
  - yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
    Astrology is new age, and yet the stars predate all of us. Chinese Medicine is new age, and yet the practice supposedly dates back 3,500 years. I wonder if they were also killing rhinos for their horns to make useless “medicine” back then?
- asdff 7y ago
  What do you mean? It's a great quote. I've been savoring it all day.
sevilo 7y ago
I feel very conflicted about this philosophy, on one hand, I do believe this is a way one can find peace. On the other hand, because I have been living this way, I feel like I never stand up for anything that i believe to be right.
thih9 7y ago
> Because he accepts himself, > the whole world accepts him These lines seem a simplified stretch or an incorrect observation, particularly in the current context. Some people, e.g. minorities, accept themselves, yet they seem repeatedly rejected by others. This is a very common occurrence online.
xenocratus 7y ago
Thanks, I needed to hear that. Tao Te Ching shall be the next book on my reading list. Have a nice day!

majewsky 7y ago

I don't agree with this particular articulation of this position. Stoicism says something similar, "recognize what you can affect and don't mourn over the things you cannot affect", but this quote up there is taking it too far. This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people, which would leave politics to unwise people. I would say: If you try to convince others of something, focus your energy on one thing. You won't be very convincing if you argue "I've heard that X" on 100 topics, but it will be more effective if you go deep into one topic and have a huge number of arguments on standby, with links to further resources, so that you can create a concise and focused rebuttal when that particular topic comes up.

nurettin 7y ago
At the time and place that quote was written, wisdom referred to leadership, or reliable old people. And leaders would use their physical, mental or monetary abilities instead of talking people down in public display. This "who can talk better to convince the crowd" business appeared more than once throughout history and was at it's peak effectiveness among the scientific community during the enlightenment phase of europe where your peers are actually as intelligent or more intelligent than you are, and your tools are empirical evidence rather than your charisma. The idea later reverted to it's hellenistic form of democratic political dialogue which is only effective as the critics of it's listeners, or the demos.
cbanek 7y ago
> This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people, which would leave politics to unwise people. There's convincing with words, and convincing by example. "The Master does his job" - not necessarily in private or alone. If people see someone successfully accomplishing something, they will follow. For me, seeing something work is a lot more powerful change actor than someone talking in hypotheticals trying to convince me. If you say something to someone and they are unconvinced, I doubt more prodding will convince them. Eventually they will say they are convinced, just to have you go away, and let them do it the same way. Then they become more entrenched in their beliefs, even if they know it's wrong. “Every truth has four corners. As a teacher I give you one corner, and it is for you to find the other three.” –Confucius
9wzYQbTYsAIc 7y ago
> leave politics to the unwise To build on quotes from the Tao Te Ching, same translation: “Throw away holiness and wisdom, and people will be a hundred times happier. Throw away morality and justice, and people will do the right thing. Throw away industry and profit, and there won't be any thieves. If these three aren't enough, just stay at the center of the circle and let all things take their course.”
smacktoward 7y ago
> This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people Other chapters in the Tao address this objection, by emphasizing the value of humility and leading by example over cleverness and trying to beat people into submission with words. Express yourself completely, then keep quiet. Be like the forces of nature: when it blows, there is only wind; when it rains, there is only rain; when the clouds pass, the sun shines through. (http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=23&a=Stephen+Mitchell http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=23&a=Stephen+Mitchell) Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear? Can you remain unmoving till the right action arises by itself? (http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=15&a=Stephen+Mitchell http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=15&a=Stephen+Mitchell) The Master doesn't talk, he acts. When his work is done, the people say, "Amazing: we did it, all by ourselves!" (http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=17&a=Stephen+Mitchell http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=17&a=Stephen+Mitchell)
- andrepd 7y ago
  >beat people into submission with words There's something oxymoronic about this phrase.
inimino 7y ago
> This quote advocates for wise people to never try to convince other people No, sometimes the master's job is to teach someone something. It's just not all the time or even every time someone is wrong on the internet.

snorkasaurus 7y ago

I was going to comment, Take a look at the Dao De Jing, so I like that the top comment is a quote from it. The book is full of such pithy saying, and I often think that its advice to be like water isn't so much to go with the flow as it is that water takes in whatever people pollute it with and objects to nothing.

tony 7y ago

Amazing. That is succinct. Bookmarked. That's different from other translations: http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=Daodejing&no=30 http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=Daodejing&no=30 If Mitchell branched into more classics, that'd be very valuable to the cause.

cbanek 7y ago
Indeed! I have always preferred the Thomas Cleary translations (he's done a lot of chinese literature), but this Mitchell translation is REALLY good. I'm a convert.
fragsworth 7y ago
Online, nobody is a "master", because everyone is effectively anonymous. Your reputation for being right does not help you, and each point must stand on its own. Without the reputation, though, good arguments are often lost in the noise.
- FearNotDaniel 7y ago
  I could be wrong here, I'm not really familiar with Taoist thinking, but the way I interpreted the quote above is that it is more about being master of oneself, i.e. in control of your emotions and reactions, rather than being a master of the subject in the eyes of others. It seems to me that the point is not to care about reputation or winning the argument because you have no control over others anyway.
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    The first part of this chapter is important for understanding the whole, I think (especially with this translation): "Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men doesn't try to force issues or defeat enemies by force of arms. For every force there is a counterforce. Violence, even well intentioned, always rebounds upon oneself." What this is saying (again IMHO ;-) ) is that in the conversation, you can't control both sides: only your side. You can't control how someone receives your words, or how they interpret them. If you try to press your case, you will cause things to occur which you may not anticipate and for which you have no control. Therefore, if you are trying to assert some idea, rather than to clarify your own understanding, then you may actually create the antagonistic forces which you were originally trying subdue (cut off one head of the hydra and be rewarded with 2 growing). This is one of the core principles in the tao te ching. The word tall has no meaning unless you compare it with short. If I draw a box and ask you if the box is tall, you can't really say. However, if I draw another box of a different size next to it, it is easy to distinguish which one is tall and which one is short. Similarly, if I draw a single box and call it "tall", you can get an idea of what "short" means -- definitely shorter than the box I drew. In than way, declaration of one thing "creates" its opposite. If you make a declaration on the internet, it can create its own opposition. People who would never have thought about the issue, may come to defend the opposite point of view. The more you push your point, the more vigorous the defense. Had you done nothing, then nothing would have been the result. In taoist literature, the middle point between 2 extremes is called the "pivot" point. There is a point between being "tall" and being "short". If I grow my short box, it will eventually cease to be short and start becoming tall (and in comparison, the other box will become short). That point is the "pivot" point. This is a concept of "utility". Normally for something to be "useful" you must transition between an extreme and the pivot point. If you have a cup that is always full of water, then it is not "useful" (in the ordinary sense of the use of a cup -- it might still be useful as a weight ;-) ). If the cup is always empty, then it is equally not useful. It only has utility when the cup transitions between being empty and full. The same is true of spokes on a bicycle wheel. Which is more important: the wires that provide tension on the outside of the wheel, or the spaces between the wires? Without the spaces, there would be no wires: only a disk. And then there would be no spokes. It's important to alternate between spoke and space. So, to answer the parent's question: from (my interpretation of) a taoist point of view, you need to be careful not to press your case because you will create your own opposition. However, if you wish to have utility in your argument, it is important to move from the pivot point, to an extreme and back to the pivot point again (possibly over and over and over again). How you do that is beyond my ability to answer ;-)

Scarbutt 7y ago

Is this Buddhism?

wolco 7y ago
Taoism

IAmGraydon 7y ago

What is the “job” it refers to? Is that a person’s true purpose?

quickthrower2 7y ago
Web developer, working on user stories for a marketing company that tracks its users, of course!

EvanAnderson 7y ago

For those on mobile: The Master does his job and then stops. He understands that the universe is forever out of control, and that trying to dominate events goes against the current of the Tao. Because he believes in himself, he doesn't try to convince others. Because he is content with himself, he doesn't need others' approval. Because he accepts himself, the whole world accepts him. — Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation (http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=30&a=Stephen+Mitchell http://taoteching.org.uk/index.php?c=30&a=Stephen+Mitchell) reply

lucb1e 7y ago
Maybe a little meta, but I'd like to get a second opinion before I bother the moderators by email. (1) Does anyone know why the preformatted sections (<pre>) are limited to a width smaller than the width of the post? At all widths, it's roughly 75% of the comment's width. For mobile, this is especially bad, but I'm not sure why it's there on normal screens resolutions either. (2) You could test different widths. Right click the preformatted section and choose "inspect element". You should have the <code> block highlighted. Move to the parent element, the <pre>. On the right, you should see a max-width with some pixel value. Try setting that to "100%" (without quotes) rather than some pixel amount. Does that work fine for you? Would you like that change? It would be great if someone could somehow test this on mobile as well, but on desktop (if I resize the browser) it seems to work well.
- notatoad 7y ago
  to get even more meta: can we please have a proper blockquote format on HN so that people stop doing this silly code formatting?
  - lucb1e 7y ago
    I'm personally fine with using the > symbol at the beginning of quoted lines, not sure why people see the need to indent every line with four spaces, that's torture for both the writer and the reader (sideways scrolling long lines, and monospaced doesn't read nicely either). But I'm fine either way, so if there is a small css change that people seem to be in favor of which I (or someone else) can propose, that's probably easier than selling a new feature to the whole community, so I'd like to focus on that here.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

buboard 7y ago

That's not how the world works today though. The delphic aphorisms similarly argue for a certain cosmic indifference. Yet the past 500 years have been guided by excessive overconfidence and an irreverent belief that man Can and should control the universe, and that others should hold that belief too. And it's been wildly successful by material measures.

georgebarnett 7y ago
We are no happier as a result of that success. Instead, we are on the verge of destroying our biosphere and civilisation. Material progress is useful, but hollow.
stevens32 7y ago
That's a material strategy, if it weren't successful by material measures it'd be just a failure in implementation. It's kind of like saying this path was the right path because we've made it pretty far on it.

jmts 7y ago

Slightly off topic, but I've followed this a little deeper and am wondering if anyone has any recommended Taoist reading? It appears this translation of Tao Te Ching is available in book form. Could anyone suggest a translation of Zhuangzi worth looking into?

wayneftw 7y ago
I really like "Getting Right with Tao: A Contemporary Spin on the Tao Te Ching". - http://beatrice.com/wordpress/tao-te-ching/ http://beatrice.com/wordpress/tao-te-ching/ - The original free version - http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf http://www.beatrice.com/TAO.pdf Here's the same verse, I think: The Masters do what needs doing and that's all they do. Do what you have to do without arrogance or pride. Get the job done and don't brag about it afterwards. Do what you have to do, not for your own benefit, but because it needs to be done. And don't do it the way you think it should be done, do it the way it needs to be done.
aldoushuxley001 7y ago
I recommend any Mantak Chia books. Take them with a grain of salt but there is a lot of good in there too.
otakucode 7y ago
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It's the best-selling philosophy book of all time, and you really can't go wrong with it. It's not about Taoism directly. But it is. You get that with Taoist sort of things.

andrepd 7y ago

What does this mean? Never try to change anything because the world is fixed and fate is immutable? Sounds like a generic defeatist philosophy.

darkerside 7y ago
Try to change what you can, and recognize that the things you can't are vast, innumerable, infinite.
- kgwxd 7y ago
  Seems glass half empty. The things you can change are vast, innumerable, infinite. Maybe less infinite, but infinite.
  - darkerside 7y ago
    What you can change is a drop in an immense ocean. And that's ok. Yo can either ignore the rest of the ocean (denial), or make peace with the fact that the tiny drop of the ocean you can control is all that really matters.
    - andrepd 7y ago
      That's (again, in my opinion) a really depressing and defeatist way to look at things, and at worst, a poetic way of saying "fuck you I got mine".
      - darkerside 7y ago
        Well... it does have the advantage of being true. I'm just explaining one positive method of coping with this vast and amazing universe. Do you have another?
  - AdieuToLogic 7y ago
    Is it that the glass is half empty or recognition that a glass cannot hold everything the world can pour into it?

ngold 7y ago

Put in place ideas that work. Watch them flourish. Revisit them. To watch them crumble. Update them to learn your mistake. Educate the next generation. On where you failed. Rinse and repeat. Education is the only thing holding society together.

kgwxd 7y ago

Why would someone that believed that, ever publish it? To convince others to not try to convince others?

nf8nnfufuu 7y ago
I've long thought that about all those zen masters and so on. Maybe they are just happy because they get to lecture and make fun of their pupils? Maybe some real wisdom exists out there, that unfortunately involves not telling other people about it.

mieses 7y ago

Interesting. The highest ideal in western culture is truth, not harmony.

asdff 7y ago
Truth can make you miserable, especially when you have no agency to deal with it. Ignorance can be bliss.

sifar 7y ago

When all under heaven know beauty as beauty, There is then ugliness, When all know the good as good, There is then the not good. Therefore being and non-being give rise to each other, The difficult and easy complement each other, The long and short shape each other, The high and low lean on each other, Voices and instruments harmonize with one another, The front and rear follow upon each other. Therefore the sage manages affairs without action, Carries out teaching without speech. Ten thousand things arise and he does not initiate them, They come to be and he claims no possession of them, He works without holding on, Accomplishes without claiming merit. Because he does not claim merit, His merit does not go away. [0] This is one of the key passages. Whenever we name something, it's opposite is created too. This problem lies at the heart of categorization and knowledge. Try to avoid that. For those interested [1] has many translations of the Tao Te Ching to compare. [0] https://terebess.hu/english/tao/e-m-chen.html https://terebess.hu/english/tao/e-m-chen.html [1] https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

naiveai 7y ago

I'd never think that the HN crowd would be into all that New Age Eastern Zen-Tao pointless philosophizing, but here we are.

otakucode 7y ago
Have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance? It's the best-selling philosophy book of all time. I actually only read it fairly recently, and was stunned at how relevant it was. It was written in the 70s, yet even includes a few passages about computers! It's not about zen, or about motorcycle maintenance. But they both make appearances. I'd recommend giving it a go if you get the chance. It might make Zen and Tao seem a bit less New-Agey to you. Or, you could check out my personal introduction to the Tao... The Tao of Pooh. I read it when I was a teenager, thinking it positively absurd that anyone would create a book attempting to explain an ancient school of philosophy through Winnie the Pooh. It's not absurd. I found it sublime, and the idea of taoism made a powerful impression on me and probably played a sizable role in driving me to further study of philosophy.
multjoy 7y ago
I’m not sure that something that pre-dates the printing press can be considered ‘new age’
- yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
  Astrology is new age, and yet the stars predate all of us. Chinese Medicine is new age, and yet the practice supposedly dates back 3,500 years. I wonder if they were also killing rhinos for their horns to make useless “medicine” back then?
asdff 7y ago
What do you mean? It's a great quote. I've been savoring it all day.

sevilo 7y ago

I feel very conflicted about this philosophy, on one hand, I do believe this is a way one can find peace. On the other hand, because I have been living this way, I feel like I never stand up for anything that i believe to be right.

thih9 7y ago

> Because he accepts himself, > the whole world accepts him These lines seem a simplified stretch or an incorrect observation, particularly in the current context. Some people, e.g. minorities, accept themselves, yet they seem repeatedly rejected by others. This is a very common occurrence online.

xenocratus 7y ago

Thanks, I needed to hear that. Tao Te Ching shall be the next book on my reading list. Have a nice day!