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> “You’ve got a guy shooting heroin on the street, and the cop is supposed to say, ‘You O.K.?’” grumbled one law enforcement officer in Seattle. (In fact, an of

by koolba 7y ago

> “You’ve got a guy shooting heroin on the street, and the cop is supposed to say, ‘You O.K.?’” grumbled one law enforcement officer in Seattle. (In fact, an officer would typically confiscate the heroin, admonish the user and move on.) Some residents worry that when the city ignores its own laws on the books and tolerates people openly abusing narcotics, it takes a step toward incivility that will eventually result in chaos and crime. There’s also a legitimate argument that the threat of prison is sometimes necessary to motivate users to participate in treatment programs. What non-drug user would want to live in a town where someone shooting heroin in public is not removed from the street? I know I wouldn't. I'm not saying lock em up and throw away the key but you can't just move on and pretend nothing happened. If you're going to provide treatment in lieu of jail time then it needs to mandatory.

phil248 7y ago
What does confiscating an addict's heroin accomplish? As far as I can tell, all you've done is make a desperate addict far more desperate than they were a moment ago. The situation is only made worse.
- diydsp 7y ago
  One could say it incentivizes them to keep it at home, out of view of minors.
  - crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
    Hiding the world from our children instead of letting them see how awful the adults have made it is dishonest, at best. I prefer to teach kids how to find compassion for people in such situations.
    - sempron64 7y ago
      Do you have kids? If you let them near active drug users as an object lesson, you need CPS called on you.
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        are you sure you aren't letting your kids near "active drug users" when you take them to family gatherings?
        sempron64 7y ago
        Active as in currently shooting up.
        frankus 7y ago
        I think he was alluding to non-injected drug use, like drinking beer or smoking weed. Of course by the time injecting street drugs into your veins seems like your least-bad option, you're in a pretty desperate place and maybe not someone that kids should be around while you're using.
        leetcrew 7y ago
        I thought the post I was replying to was implying that people on drugs are inherently dangerous to be around, so all I was really trying to suggest is that there are a lot of people who appear "respectable" but are hiding a serious drug habit. it seems that sempron64 meant people who are literally in the act of shooting up. I guess I can understand not wanting a child to see that, although I question whether that's really as bad as we are supposed to think. it can certainly be unsettling to see for the first time, but all it ever suggests to me is that the person has a truly miserable life. I honestly doubt that it's as bad as pervasive images of people drinking, smoking, partying and having a good time. the latter seems a lot more likely to lead an impressionable mind astray.
      - crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
        I have a 10-month old child. We are raising them very differently from the way a fear-avoidant society might. As such, this is not the first time I've expressed decisions we're making that someone has suggested or even threatened to call CPS. We have multiple mandatory reporters closely involved in helping raise our child. We'll be more than happy to take them along with us to learn about various things that are all around them in the world. This will include things like taking our child to Narcotics Anonymous meetings, where active drug users may exist, and may excuse themselves to go to the bathroom to shoot up. We will, of course, only be bringing our child into such a context with their consent (which children are definitely able to give in a variety of ways, even if they may not fully comprehend what's happening). It's our job to keep our child safe in these environments, which means first teaching them how to heal from trauma and maybe waiting til they've displayed their ability to do so before taking them. Regardless, this is a much more careful and well-thought lesson than simply "letting them near active drug users" which we cannot ever be certain of and refuse to pretend as though that's possible. We don't live in denial like that. I'm an addict of many behaviors and my recovery's going incredibly well. Chemical addictions come with added complications of side effects from the chemicals doing their own rewiring, but it's the behavior of escaping reality that's rewiring the reward center. As a result, there's a lot of overlap between recovering from behavioral and chemical addictions. Also, please feel free to call CPS on us at any time. My name is my username and I live in Port Townsend, WA. I look forward to developing a working relationship with people who are interested in the well-being of my child* because raising them is an active experiment in applying the sciences of culture hacking, well-being, and learning how to learn in as loving of a manner as possible. (* Note, I'm not sure if you're actually interested in my child's well-being, as CPS and the foster system are NOTORIOUS for systemically traumatizing children. Yes, there are some systems not harming children or doing so minimally...so in spite of being a system of denying parents and children autonomy, which is a need for thriving...but I'm guessing you didn't look into the state of CPS near me to assess whether or not promoting calling them was actually in my child's interest. If you didn't, would you be willing to do your homework before making similar comments to other parents, as they may not have the emotional intelligence I have cultivated to keep from spiraling into fear? If not, would you be willing to continue making them toward me when you want to do so, so as to at least redirect your potentially harmful behavior? There's a lot of people out there, especially parents, who're suffering from Complex PTSD and undiagnosed because CPTSD is a new diagnosis and official diagnoses require access to certain types of privilege. Let's help educate them and everyone else about CPTSD and how to heal, not threaten them with violence, which is what threatening to call the state on someone is, since the state is designed with violence at its core.)
    - nostrebored 7y ago
      This might break the hacker news civility rules, but fuck this. Heroin has torn my family apart, resulted in multiple deaths (some of entirely unrelated people), and ruined my childhood. These people aren't pity props in some sort of fucked up game, they're humans and they're hurting themselves.
      - crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
        I'm sorry for all of your losses and I agree, they're hurting themselves and others. So let's treat them like humans who need connection & acceptance & healing, instead of animals who need caging, as well as offer healing and protection to those close to them. Compassion and pity are NOT the same thing. The former is about providing mutual aid and solidarity, the latter is enabling, codependent, and charitable.
    - redisman 7y ago
      Preach. I, also, send my kids to go camping in Pioneer Square/under I-5 to teach them about the _real world_.
  - sukilot 7y ago
    For that to work, they'd need a home. How is "view of minors" relevant?
    - toasterlovin 7y ago
      > How is "view of minors" relevant? Because minors shouldn't be exposed to certain things. Like public urination, drug use, or fornication.
  - gwbas1c 7y ago
    > One could say it incentivizes them to keep it at home, out of view of minors. Where do you expect homeless (and mentally ill) people to do their drugs? The issue is far more complicated then that. I don't think we have the political will to round up a bunch of homeless people and criminals and take care of them in a humane manner. We probably can't even agree on what is considered a humane and ethical way to take care of homeless and mentally ill people who probably don't want to be confined to treatment against their will.
    - toasterlovin 7y ago
      > Where do you expect homeless (and mentally ill) people to do their drugs? Where they used to do it before the current decade (under freeway overpasses and in the bushes alongside freeways).
- rdtwo 7y ago
  Well it prevents the ambulance from having to administer narcan an hour or 2 later
- pnw_hazor 7y ago
  Maybe they would move to somewhere else where they can do their drugs in broad daylight in public without cops bothering them. And where commiting crimes to support their drug habit are unchallenged. Someplace like Seattle.
diydsp 7y ago
> What non-drug user would want to live in a town where someone shooting heroin in public is not removed from the street? I know I wouldn't. It really depends on the broader systematic picture. If drug addicts fear consequences to the point of arming themselves and attacking strangers to avoid arrest and maintain supply, that's bad. If they're able to demonstrate victimless crime, get their gear confiscated and force to keep it to themselves in their own homes or ask for help from the community without threat of incarceration, that's good. So we really have to look at how it plays out in reality. It's not enough to make a black or white decision based on a hypothetical scenario. Furthermore, we need to consider the impact of judgement by police and rehab operators. Familiarity with the individuals and difficult-to-quantify details of each scenario may make the decision between admonishment, incarceration and forced rehab. That said, these don't have to be ambiguous clouds of blurry judgement. We can prototype decision trees and debate about them.
crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
Your perspective promotes traumatizing systems. You are therefore a danger to yourself and society. If you are locked up as a result of this, will the reeducation take? ----------------- Thought experiment aside, you don't know what other people need and forcing your ideas onto them is how we get into these messes in the first place. Authoritarianism isn't a healing modality.
- koolba 7y ago
  > Your perspective promotes traumatizing systems. You are therefore a danger to yourself and society. > If you are locked up as a result of this, will the reeducation take? Ha! If offending people was illegal I'd have been in prison a long time ago. > Thought experiment aside, you don't know what other people need and forcing your ideas onto them is how we get into these messes in the first place. I'm not forcing my ideas on anyone. These are the laws collectively decided by us and and forefathers. As a group we've decided that we do not want people shooting heroin on our streets and we've made the practice illegal. > Authoritarianism isn't a healing modality. I'd argue it authoritarianism to force a law abiding member of society to put up with this craziness in their communities. The people I feel the most sorry for are on the lower end of the income scale that do not have the financial means to vote with their feet.
  - crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
    You get to vote with your thoughts, actions, and words on the daily. I don't support unjust laws. If you do, cool. It's still authoritarianism. And nobody's forcing you to put up with it, as evidenced by you holding a mindset of not putting up with it. Acceptance is a choice and you are allowed to not choose it, as you currently demonstrate. Just because the law makers haven't yet criminalized your lack of compassion doesn't mean it'll be justice if they do and then come for you. So why support unjust laws pointed toward others?
  - sukilot 7y ago
    You think that junkies are higher income than the people who are forced to see them?
justforyou 7y ago
>> What non-drug user would want to live in a town where someone shooting heroin in public is not removed from the street? I know I wouldn't. Does your squeamishness about seeing someone use an intravenous delivery method really justify the cost of state intervention?
entropea 7y ago
I've seen plenty of people shooting drugs in Seattle. So what? As long as they're not out attacking people or giving it to kids or something, I could care less what they do to themselves. Seattle has a different mindset, it always has, its just the new Amazon & Tech population is trying to change the culture.
- sukilot 7y ago
  I suppose you are also in favor of legalizing drunk driving, because the gross negligence of the matter is irrelevant?
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
>What non-drug user would want to live in a town where someone shooting heroin in public is not removed from the street? I know I wouldn't. I was in Portland and watched a guy shooting up on a bench middle of the day, tons of people around, he was screaming for no one to look at him, police at the other end of the block. I appreciated that I was just visiting.

by koolba 7y ago

phil248 7y ago

What does confiscating an addict's heroin accomplish? As far as I can tell, all you've done is make a desperate addict far more desperate than they were a moment ago. The situation is only made worse.

diydsp 7y ago
One could say it incentivizes them to keep it at home, out of view of minors.
- crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
  Hiding the world from our children instead of letting them see how awful the adults have made it is dishonest, at best. I prefer to teach kids how to find compassion for people in such situations.
  - sempron64 7y ago
    Do you have kids? If you let them near active drug users as an object lesson, you need CPS called on you.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      are you sure you aren't letting your kids near "active drug users" when you take them to family gatherings?
      - sempron64 7y ago
        Active as in currently shooting up.
        frankus 7y ago
        I think he was alluding to non-injected drug use, like drinking beer or smoking weed. Of course by the time injecting street drugs into your veins seems like your least-bad option, you're in a pretty desperate place and maybe not someone that kids should be around while you're using.
        leetcrew 7y ago
        I thought the post I was replying to was implying that people on drugs are inherently dangerous to be around, so all I was really trying to suggest is that there are a lot of people who appear "respectable" but are hiding a serious drug habit. it seems that sempron64 meant people who are literally in the act of shooting up. I guess I can understand not wanting a child to see that, although I question whether that's really as bad as we are supposed to think. it can certainly be unsettling to see for the first time, but all it ever suggests to me is that the person has a truly miserable life. I honestly doubt that it's as bad as pervasive images of people drinking, smoking, partying and having a good time. the latter seems a lot more likely to lead an impressionable mind astray.
    - crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
      I have a 10-month old child. We are raising them very differently from the way a fear-avoidant society might. As such, this is not the first time I've expressed decisions we're making that someone has suggested or even threatened to call CPS. We have multiple mandatory reporters closely involved in helping raise our child. We'll be more than happy to take them along with us to learn about various things that are all around them in the world. This will include things like taking our child to Narcotics Anonymous meetings, where active drug users may exist, and may excuse themselves to go to the bathroom to shoot up. We will, of course, only be bringing our child into such a context with their consent (which children are definitely able to give in a variety of ways, even if they may not fully comprehend what's happening). It's our job to keep our child safe in these environments, which means first teaching them how to heal from trauma and maybe waiting til they've displayed their ability to do so before taking them. Regardless, this is a much more careful and well-thought lesson than simply "letting them near active drug users" which we cannot ever be certain of and refuse to pretend as though that's possible. We don't live in denial like that. I'm an addict of many behaviors and my recovery's going incredibly well. Chemical addictions come with added complications of side effects from the chemicals doing their own rewiring, but it's the behavior of escaping reality that's rewiring the reward center. As a result, there's a lot of overlap between recovering from behavioral and chemical addictions. Also, please feel free to call CPS on us at any time. My name is my username and I live in Port Townsend, WA. I look forward to developing a working relationship with people who are interested in the well-being of my child* because raising them is an active experiment in applying the sciences of culture hacking, well-being, and learning how to learn in as loving of a manner as possible. (* Note, I'm not sure if you're actually interested in my child's well-being, as CPS and the foster system are NOTORIOUS for systemically traumatizing children. Yes, there are some systems not harming children or doing so minimally...so in spite of being a system of denying parents and children autonomy, which is a need for thriving...but I'm guessing you didn't look into the state of CPS near me to assess whether or not promoting calling them was actually in my child's interest. If you didn't, would you be willing to do your homework before making similar comments to other parents, as they may not have the emotional intelligence I have cultivated to keep from spiraling into fear? If not, would you be willing to continue making them toward me when you want to do so, so as to at least redirect your potentially harmful behavior? There's a lot of people out there, especially parents, who're suffering from Complex PTSD and undiagnosed because CPTSD is a new diagnosis and official diagnoses require access to certain types of privilege. Let's help educate them and everyone else about CPTSD and how to heal, not threaten them with violence, which is what threatening to call the state on someone is, since the state is designed with violence at its core.)
  - nostrebored 7y ago
    This might break the hacker news civility rules, but fuck this. Heroin has torn my family apart, resulted in multiple deaths (some of entirely unrelated people), and ruined my childhood. These people aren't pity props in some sort of fucked up game, they're humans and they're hurting themselves.
    - crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
      I'm sorry for all of your losses and I agree, they're hurting themselves and others. So let's treat them like humans who need connection & acceptance & healing, instead of animals who need caging, as well as offer healing and protection to those close to them. Compassion and pity are NOT the same thing. The former is about providing mutual aid and solidarity, the latter is enabling, codependent, and charitable.
  - redisman 7y ago
    Preach. I, also, send my kids to go camping in Pioneer Square/under I-5 to teach them about the _real world_.
- sukilot 7y ago
  For that to work, they'd need a home. How is "view of minors" relevant?
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    > How is "view of minors" relevant? Because minors shouldn't be exposed to certain things. Like public urination, drug use, or fornication.
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  > One could say it incentivizes them to keep it at home, out of view of minors. Where do you expect homeless (and mentally ill) people to do their drugs? The issue is far more complicated then that. I don't think we have the political will to round up a bunch of homeless people and criminals and take care of them in a humane manner. We probably can't even agree on what is considered a humane and ethical way to take care of homeless and mentally ill people who probably don't want to be confined to treatment against their will.
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    > Where do you expect homeless (and mentally ill) people to do their drugs? Where they used to do it before the current decade (under freeway overpasses and in the bushes alongside freeways).
rdtwo 7y ago
Well it prevents the ambulance from having to administer narcan an hour or 2 later
pnw_hazor 7y ago
Maybe they would move to somewhere else where they can do their drugs in broad daylight in public without cops bothering them. And where commiting crimes to support their drug habit are unchallenged. Someplace like Seattle.

diydsp 7y ago

> What non-drug user would want to live in a town where someone shooting heroin in public is not removed from the street? I know I wouldn't. It really depends on the broader systematic picture. If drug addicts fear consequences to the point of arming themselves and attacking strangers to avoid arrest and maintain supply, that's bad. If they're able to demonstrate victimless crime, get their gear confiscated and force to keep it to themselves in their own homes or ask for help from the community without threat of incarceration, that's good. So we really have to look at how it plays out in reality. It's not enough to make a black or white decision based on a hypothetical scenario. Furthermore, we need to consider the impact of judgement by police and rehab operators. Familiarity with the individuals and difficult-to-quantify details of each scenario may make the decision between admonishment, incarceration and forced rehab. That said, these don't have to be ambiguous clouds of blurry judgement. We can prototype decision trees and debate about them.

crawfordcomeaux 7y ago

Your perspective promotes traumatizing systems. You are therefore a danger to yourself and society. If you are locked up as a result of this, will the reeducation take? ----------------- Thought experiment aside, you don't know what other people need and forcing your ideas onto them is how we get into these messes in the first place. Authoritarianism isn't a healing modality.

koolba 7y ago
> Your perspective promotes traumatizing systems. You are therefore a danger to yourself and society. > If you are locked up as a result of this, will the reeducation take? Ha! If offending people was illegal I'd have been in prison a long time ago. > Thought experiment aside, you don't know what other people need and forcing your ideas onto them is how we get into these messes in the first place. I'm not forcing my ideas on anyone. These are the laws collectively decided by us and and forefathers. As a group we've decided that we do not want people shooting heroin on our streets and we've made the practice illegal. > Authoritarianism isn't a healing modality. I'd argue it authoritarianism to force a law abiding member of society to put up with this craziness in their communities. The people I feel the most sorry for are on the lower end of the income scale that do not have the financial means to vote with their feet.
- crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
  You get to vote with your thoughts, actions, and words on the daily. I don't support unjust laws. If you do, cool. It's still authoritarianism. And nobody's forcing you to put up with it, as evidenced by you holding a mindset of not putting up with it. Acceptance is a choice and you are allowed to not choose it, as you currently demonstrate. Just because the law makers haven't yet criminalized your lack of compassion doesn't mean it'll be justice if they do and then come for you. So why support unjust laws pointed toward others?
- sukilot 7y ago
  You think that junkies are higher income than the people who are forced to see them?

justforyou 7y ago

>> What non-drug user would want to live in a town where someone shooting heroin in public is not removed from the street? I know I wouldn't. Does your squeamishness about seeing someone use an intravenous delivery method really justify the cost of state intervention?

entropea 7y ago

I've seen plenty of people shooting drugs in Seattle. So what? As long as they're not out attacking people or giving it to kids or something, I could care less what they do to themselves. Seattle has a different mindset, it always has, its just the new Amazon & Tech population is trying to change the culture.

sukilot 7y ago
I suppose you are also in favor of legalizing drunk driving, because the gross negligence of the matter is irrelevant?

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago

>What non-drug user would want to live in a town where someone shooting heroin in public is not removed from the street? I know I wouldn't. I was in Portland and watched a guy shooting up on a bench middle of the day, tons of people around, he was screaming for no one to look at him, police at the other end of the block. I appreciated that I was just visiting.