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What's your supply and demand explanation for the following norms? - It's considered professional for employees give their employers two weeks notice before le

What's your supply and demand explanation for the following norms? - It's considered professional for employees give their employers two weeks notice before leaving. It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day. - It's considered unprofessional to talk about what you're getting paid. - It's considered normal for potential employers to do background checks, call references, and even run credit checks on potential employees. Ask a potential employer for references or any information on their financials, and that's weird. The latter is particularly strange, because the employer is paying the employee, so the employee has a much larger interest in making sure the employer can pay them.

ailideex 7y ago
> It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day. Nope.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mikelyons 7y ago
  "Nope." is cute and shows you're cocksure about that. However, the reality is that this happens all the time and is never punished by culture as "unprofessional" for a corporation to do. Who would punish them? The customers?
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    >Who would punish them? The customers? Future potential employees. If I go on glassdoor and read about this happening I'm either going to A: raise my rates as I need to keep a larger emergency fund to deal with these guys B: decline to work there at all They end up only ever getting entry level kids to work for them. The system sort of works in that regard if you come from a non-traditional background you can work for a year or two at a job like that, skill up and move on.
    - mikelyons 7y ago
      There have been many threads on HN where the debate is "Do employees have enough power to [punish companies] if they need" but none of them have really every made a coherent case one way or the other, but they seem to lean "no" Disclaim: My personal Anecdote^
      - ailideex 7y ago
        If someone steals my car, and I don't have a means to punish them, is it also okay for them to steal my car? I don't really get your reasoning here.
        mikelyons 7y ago
        Saying it's okay, that's up to you. Do they get away with it? YES!
  - ailideex 7y ago
    > However, the reality is that this happens all the time Murder also happens all the time and it is not okay. Something happening does not mean it is okay.
    - mikelyons 7y ago
      Saying it's okay, that's up to you. Do they get away with it? YES!
      - ailideex 7y ago
        > It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day. So where does the sentiment that it is completely okay come from?
        mikelyons 7y ago
        The company's self-bias https://actualized.org/insights/aliens-confirmed https://actualized.org/insights/aliens-confirmed
kasey_junk 7y ago
My explanation is you are just wrong about all of those things. A firm that let people go without severance would be considered extremely unprofessional in professional contexts. Talking about how much you get paid is not only normal it’s protected by law and you should definitely be doing both legal and financial research on any perspective employers.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > A firm that let people go without severance would be considered extremely unprofessional in professional contexts. Not everyone works at "firms": this is extremely common in food service, for example. > Talking about how much you get paid is not only normal it’s protected by law Citation? I've worked at least one place where it was explicitly against the rules to share what you were paid with your coworkers (although this was years ago--I'd be happy to hear if the situation has changed). > you should definitely be doing both legal and financial research on any perspective employers. Obviously, but you simply don't have the same tools to do that. Have you tried asking employers for references?
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    Discussion of pay (and other workplace issues) is a "protected concerted activity" under the National Labor Relations Act, even when it happens outside the context of a union: https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/rights/employee-rights https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/rights/employee-right... The NLRB has taken action against companies that have attempted to use such handbook policies against workers: https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/enforcement-activity/protected-concerted-activity https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/enforcement-activity/... (click the pin on Missouri, it isn't direct-linkable :()
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      Interesting, I'm glad to be wrong on that one. I guess that means my previous employer just had some unenforceable policies (not too surprising).
macspoofing 7y ago
>What's your supply and demand explanation for the following norms? OK. You can't just assert things and then when someone disagrees challenge them to come up with their own explanation. The null hypothesis is "I don't know".
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  The person I'm responding to said: > The situation is pretty much dictated by supply/demand and both sides take advantage. If that hypothesis is true, then they can use that hypothesis to explain the existent phenomena.
  - macspoofing 7y ago
    >If that hypothesis is true, then they can use that hypothesis to explain the existent phenomena Why would that be the case? It is true that supply/demand largely explains what happens in the job market. It is also true that there are are socio/political/cultural forces at play. For example, supply and demand is not a good explanation for why you can't come into most work environments in your undergarments.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      I think maybe we agree. I was disagreeing with the one-sided claim, "The situation is pretty much dictated by supply/demand and both sides take advantage." But you said something more balanced which I agree with: "It is true that supply/demand largely explains what happens in the job market. It is also true that there are are socio/political/cultural forces at play."
    - mlyle 7y ago
      > For example, supply and demand is not a good explanation for why you can't come into most work environments in your undergarments. Sure, when we get to ridiculous cases. But things just short of that, supply/demand is a huge contributor to. Showing up to work in shorts and flip flops? How acceptable this is depends a lot upon how hot the job market is. Of course, no matter how hot the demand situation is-- it is never going to cause one to tolerate behavior so egregious that it scares away other employees and makes the supply picture worse.
greyhair 7y ago
Termination without notice or payment is definitely considered bad form, short of the company closing due to bankruptcy. I have never worked anywhere that did not provide notice or some severance. Even at a startup that cut 50% prior to going down in flames, they paid those half that were released two weeks pay and two weeks insurance coverage. (even though they were asked to leave immediately) Large corporations tend to offer minimums plus based on years of service at termination. Even termination with cause (performance, not legal) will generally be after a half year of 'remediation' training, then plenty of notice to find a new job.
- monocasa 7y ago
  The couple times I've been laid off, the severance was dependent on signing over new legal requirements like new non solicits for who they didn't lay off.
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  Are you US-based? Because severence packages are absolutely an exception, rather than the norm. Most of the US has "at-will" employment, which states that employers can terminate employees at will, for any reason, without warning. And companies take advantage of this all the time. The other thing is that you seem to be speaking as a developer. Everyone knows that our industry treats employees better than average. You really need to look at the broader landscape though.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    For layoffs, severance is common. For other terminations .... there should be a performance improvement plan in place and you should have seen it coming for a long time. Only the most severe, egregious situations should result in a off-the-cuff, surprising firing. [I'm not saying that everyone lives up to this standard, but it's the way it should be.]
  - chrisco255 7y ago
    Sure, but that goes back to the point that supply and demand are driving these sort of concessions by employers. Devs are in high demand and low supply, so the concessions are much higher than say, a retail job. I would say severance is common in "professional" roles, whether that be an accountant or middle manager. It's certainly less common in blue collar work and lower skill work. Despite the existence of at-will employment in some states, many companies in these states still choose not to fire indiscriminately. I think that it's smart business practice to offer severance, because companies are reviewed these days on sites like Glassdoor. A company with a bad reputation for treating employees is going to have a hard time attracting talent.
chaostheory 7y ago
Most of your points feel out of date and just not true unless you're working in the boonies ie backwater areas with only 1-2 dominant employers > It's considered unprofessional to talk about what you're getting paid. This is no longer the case. Some companies have even taken the transparent route where everyone's salary is publicly available. > Ask a potential employer for references or any information on their financials, and that's weird You can work for a publicly traded company if you really want access to financial data. Even some startups will provide it if you just ask. You can also glean insight through sites like Glass Door. They have existed well over a decade now. This issue mainly stems from employees not habitually doing enough due diligence on companies, unless there are legal and financial barriers that I missed.

ailideex 7y ago

> It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day. Nope.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mikelyons 7y ago
"Nope." is cute and shows you're cocksure about that. However, the reality is that this happens all the time and is never punished by culture as "unprofessional" for a corporation to do. Who would punish them? The customers?
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  >Who would punish them? The customers? Future potential employees. If I go on glassdoor and read about this happening I'm either going to A: raise my rates as I need to keep a larger emergency fund to deal with these guys B: decline to work there at all They end up only ever getting entry level kids to work for them. The system sort of works in that regard if you come from a non-traditional background you can work for a year or two at a job like that, skill up and move on.
  - mikelyons 7y ago
    There have been many threads on HN where the debate is "Do employees have enough power to [punish companies] if they need" but none of them have really every made a coherent case one way or the other, but they seem to lean "no" Disclaim: My personal Anecdote^
    - ailideex 7y ago
      If someone steals my car, and I don't have a means to punish them, is it also okay for them to steal my car? I don't really get your reasoning here.
      - mikelyons 7y ago
        Saying it's okay, that's up to you. Do they get away with it? YES!
- ailideex 7y ago
  > However, the reality is that this happens all the time Murder also happens all the time and it is not okay. Something happening does not mean it is okay.
  - mikelyons 7y ago
    Saying it's okay, that's up to you. Do they get away with it? YES!
    - ailideex 7y ago
      > It's considered completely reasonable for employers to terminate employees and not even pay them for the rest of the day. So where does the sentiment that it is completely okay come from?
      - mikelyons 7y ago
        The company's self-bias https://actualized.org/insights/aliens-confirmed https://actualized.org/insights/aliens-confirmed

kasey_junk 7y ago

My explanation is you are just wrong about all of those things. A firm that let people go without severance would be considered extremely unprofessional in professional contexts. Talking about how much you get paid is not only normal it’s protected by law and you should definitely be doing both legal and financial research on any perspective employers.

kerkeslager 7y ago
> A firm that let people go without severance would be considered extremely unprofessional in professional contexts. Not everyone works at "firms": this is extremely common in food service, for example. > Talking about how much you get paid is not only normal it’s protected by law Citation? I've worked at least one place where it was explicitly against the rules to share what you were paid with your coworkers (although this was years ago--I'd be happy to hear if the situation has changed). > you should definitely be doing both legal and financial research on any perspective employers. Obviously, but you simply don't have the same tools to do that. Have you tried asking employers for references?
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  Discussion of pay (and other workplace issues) is a "protected concerted activity" under the National Labor Relations Act, even when it happens outside the context of a union: https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/rights/employee-rights https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/rights/employee-right... The NLRB has taken action against companies that have attempted to use such handbook policies against workers: https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/enforcement-activity/protected-concerted-activity https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/enforcement-activity/... (click the pin on Missouri, it isn't direct-linkable :()
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Interesting, I'm glad to be wrong on that one. I guess that means my previous employer just had some unenforceable policies (not too surprising).

macspoofing 7y ago

>What's your supply and demand explanation for the following norms? OK. You can't just assert things and then when someone disagrees challenge them to come up with their own explanation. The null hypothesis is "I don't know".

kerkeslager 7y ago
The person I'm responding to said: > The situation is pretty much dictated by supply/demand and both sides take advantage. If that hypothesis is true, then they can use that hypothesis to explain the existent phenomena.
- macspoofing 7y ago
  >If that hypothesis is true, then they can use that hypothesis to explain the existent phenomena Why would that be the case? It is true that supply/demand largely explains what happens in the job market. It is also true that there are are socio/political/cultural forces at play. For example, supply and demand is not a good explanation for why you can't come into most work environments in your undergarments.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    I think maybe we agree. I was disagreeing with the one-sided claim, "The situation is pretty much dictated by supply/demand and both sides take advantage." But you said something more balanced which I agree with: "It is true that supply/demand largely explains what happens in the job market. It is also true that there are are socio/political/cultural forces at play."
  - mlyle 7y ago
    > For example, supply and demand is not a good explanation for why you can't come into most work environments in your undergarments. Sure, when we get to ridiculous cases. But things just short of that, supply/demand is a huge contributor to. Showing up to work in shorts and flip flops? How acceptable this is depends a lot upon how hot the job market is. Of course, no matter how hot the demand situation is-- it is never going to cause one to tolerate behavior so egregious that it scares away other employees and makes the supply picture worse.

greyhair 7y ago

Termination without notice or payment is definitely considered bad form, short of the company closing due to bankruptcy. I have never worked anywhere that did not provide notice or some severance. Even at a startup that cut 50% prior to going down in flames, they paid those half that were released two weeks pay and two weeks insurance coverage. (even though they were asked to leave immediately) Large corporations tend to offer minimums plus based on years of service at termination. Even termination with cause (performance, not legal) will generally be after a half year of 'remediation' training, then plenty of notice to find a new job.

monocasa 7y ago
The couple times I've been laid off, the severance was dependent on signing over new legal requirements like new non solicits for who they didn't lay off.
enraged_camel 7y ago
Are you US-based? Because severence packages are absolutely an exception, rather than the norm. Most of the US has "at-will" employment, which states that employers can terminate employees at will, for any reason, without warning. And companies take advantage of this all the time. The other thing is that you seem to be speaking as a developer. Everyone knows that our industry treats employees better than average. You really need to look at the broader landscape though.
- mlyle 7y ago
  For layoffs, severance is common. For other terminations .... there should be a performance improvement plan in place and you should have seen it coming for a long time. Only the most severe, egregious situations should result in a off-the-cuff, surprising firing. [I'm not saying that everyone lives up to this standard, but it's the way it should be.]
- chrisco255 7y ago
  Sure, but that goes back to the point that supply and demand are driving these sort of concessions by employers. Devs are in high demand and low supply, so the concessions are much higher than say, a retail job. I would say severance is common in "professional" roles, whether that be an accountant or middle manager. It's certainly less common in blue collar work and lower skill work. Despite the existence of at-will employment in some states, many companies in these states still choose not to fire indiscriminately. I think that it's smart business practice to offer severance, because companies are reviewed these days on sites like Glassdoor. A company with a bad reputation for treating employees is going to have a hard time attracting talent.

chaostheory 7y ago

Most of your points feel out of date and just not true unless you're working in the boonies ie backwater areas with only 1-2 dominant employers > It's considered unprofessional to talk about what you're getting paid. This is no longer the case. Some companies have even taken the transparent route where everyone's salary is publicly available. > Ask a potential employer for references or any information on their financials, and that's weird You can work for a publicly traded company if you really want access to financial data. Even some startups will provide it if you just ask. You can also glean insight through sites like Glass Door. They have existed well over a decade now. This issue mainly stems from employees not habitually doing enough due diligence on companies, unless there are legal and financial barriers that I missed.