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> Since then, discussions about the benefits of flexible working have intensified around the world, with a boom in large global companies embracing the concept.

> Since then, discussions about the benefits of flexible working have intensified around the world, with a boom in large global companies embracing the concept... I sure hope companies operating in U.S. adopt this behavior more and more. It always seems like in the U.S. we work harder and not necessarily smarter; certainly not healthier. I'm envious of the health-related foundations that other countries at least try to establish for their citizens. I'm tired of chasing the dollar, and wish to only pursue happiness. </sigh>

verttii 7y ago
On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not. But you're right, it doesn't necessarily lead to a better health to work harder, however, often it does lead to better business results.
- toxik 7y ago
  Citation needed on that. Scandinavian work ethic and culture is in my opinion good, and puts emphasis on overcoming hierarchical inertia (e.g. we don't use titles) and lateral thinking in a way that I feel North Americans don't, rather, the emphasis is on "the grind." Putting in insane hours, staying after the boss, etc. A thin veneer of productivity if you ask me. The reason the US excels in business is, I would say, being more willing to sell out their people, though they're probably meeting their match with China and Asia in general now.
  - mxuribe 7y ago
    > ...The reason the US excels in business is, I would say, being more willing to sell out their people... Yes, THIS exactly!
  - verttii 7y ago
    Well just dropping a link to a news article or a study wouldn't really change things. If you look at who's the one producing major digital innovations it's still USA. Sure the Nordic countries are smaller but it's hard to compete against countries like USA with well educated people with strong work ethic when you're pushing in half the hours. Sweden sure is doing well with digital innovations but can't say that the rest of the Nordics are performing equally as well. USA still has Silicon Valley which outperforms every other region in the world.
    - askosh 7y ago
      I'm an Estonian, also a nordic country. We have a bunch of things we are years ahead of in terms of digital innovations (https://e-estonia.com/ https://e-estonia.com/), all while having a 1.3m population. What does the USA do better exactly?
      - verttii 7y ago
        Estonia is certainly performing well. But since it's so tiny it's really hard to compare against a giant like USA. Although much of the same problem applies to Nordics. We use Google, Facebook, Youtube, Snapchat, Whatsapp, Apple - all American products. Whereas the Nordic countries produce very few major digital innovations used globally. Also, I didn't know Estonia was a Nordic country.
        askosh 7y ago
        Well, true, all the big players are from USA. But as far digital innovation inside of a nation go, and for the nation, USA needs to do a lot of catching up. Because while true that USA made a thing called "instagram influencers", it has done very little for its people. If by Nordic you mean Northern European, then Estonia is Nordic, all tho' often misrepresented as Eastern European.
        mih 7y ago
        >> Also, I didn't know Estonia was a Nordic country. Relevant: https://satwcomic.com/party-crasher https://satwcomic.com/party-crasher https://satwcomic.com/imposter https://satwcomic.com/imposter https://satwcomic.com/new-nordic https://satwcomic.com/new-nordic A funny take on why other 'Nordic' countries don't think so
        verttii 7y ago
        Ok I'm used to considering only Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland as Nordic countries. They're also the only members of the Nordic council. Estonia I've always just considered a Baltic country, which I suppose is accurate as well. Not that these definitions really matter anyway.
- mxuribe 7y ago
  > ...often it does lead to better business results. I think you're absolutely correct...but, lately, I've been questioning the whole premise that better business results are even a worthwhile pursuit...at least for me personally. If I bring in an additional $1MM of new value every year for my employer, i had to work really hard for that, and i only get a little pat on the head; and in the process have lost so much (mentally, physiologically, etc.). Certainly, I'm going through an existential change in my life, and as such little to no amount of justification of an American capitalist approach will make as much sense for me...But, nowadays, i really just want to chill a little bit, slow down, smell the roses, etc. And, ultimately, it feels for me that the U.S. seems like less of a place - profession-wise - to enable one to do that. (Sorry for the gloom.)
- Someone1234 7y ago
  I dispute the "better business results" claim, I don't think that's factually true. But let's assume it is, why then is wealth so much more concentrated[0] in the US? Let's assume that the US did have "better business results" and let's also assume that that is the result of worse working conditions. Why then are the workers, working in worse conditions, not benefiting from it directly? Seems like, if that were true, the US is working average workers harder so that the ultra-wealthy can get even wealthier. Does that benefit society at large? PS - I'd like to link this, called "The Nordic Model"[1] discusses a lot of good (and bad) about that part of the world. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#OECD_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... [1] https://economics.mit.edu/files/5726 https://economics.mit.edu/files/5726
  - verttii 7y ago
    In contrast, if USA is not performing better then why are most of the digital innovations of US origin? Why do like half of the world's tech billionaires live in Silicon Valley? While Finland has maybe 1? The Scandinavian countries focus on leveling the playing field for everyone. It allows the less privileged to build a good life, but it also hinders the most ambitious ones. Whereas USA is happy to focus on the extremes, allowing places like Silicon Valley to flourish. We can argue endlessly whichever is better for the society, but professionals often choose the place to live based on what is best for them, not what political model some place runs on.
    - rficcaglia 7y ago
      Low taxes. Edit: not anecdotal. I personally know 3 execs from Scandinavian countries who tell me this is why they moved here. Also health care. They travel back to EU for routine stuff, but when they need elective procedures or advanced treatments you just cannot get those back in the EU.
      - danmaz74 7y ago
        > They travel back to EU for routine stuff, but when they need elective procedures or advanced treatments you just cannot get those back in the EU Which advanced procedures aren't available in the EU? By the way, you can find private clinics in most EU countries if you don't want to use public health providers.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not. Like what? From birth mortality to all kinds of quality of life indicators its well below most of these countries...
AdrianB1 7y ago
I am working in an American company for 17.5 years, most from home (12 years) with occasional visits to the local branch office (Europe) and sometimes to the headquarter in US. I work on different time zones as needed and it gives me some flexibility, but longer hours to make up for it. It works for me, but for each case where it worked I have another 5 where it was so and so and probably 10 where it was bad for the employee. This is because people tend to work longer hours, lose connection with the team (they are not in the office at the same time), it is harder to find someone when you need them because they work different hours that change a lot. Flexible working has advantages, but it also has disadvantages and trust is not part of the equation most of the time, presence, interactivity and coordination, human connections that are created face to face, these are much more important.

verttii 7y ago

On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not. But you're right, it doesn't necessarily lead to a better health to work harder, however, often it does lead to better business results.

toxik 7y ago
Citation needed on that. Scandinavian work ethic and culture is in my opinion good, and puts emphasis on overcoming hierarchical inertia (e.g. we don't use titles) and lateral thinking in a way that I feel North Americans don't, rather, the emphasis is on "the grind." Putting in insane hours, staying after the boss, etc. A thin veneer of productivity if you ask me. The reason the US excels in business is, I would say, being more willing to sell out their people, though they're probably meeting their match with China and Asia in general now.
- mxuribe 7y ago
  > ...The reason the US excels in business is, I would say, being more willing to sell out their people... Yes, THIS exactly!
- verttii 7y ago
  Well just dropping a link to a news article or a study wouldn't really change things. If you look at who's the one producing major digital innovations it's still USA. Sure the Nordic countries are smaller but it's hard to compete against countries like USA with well educated people with strong work ethic when you're pushing in half the hours. Sweden sure is doing well with digital innovations but can't say that the rest of the Nordics are performing equally as well. USA still has Silicon Valley which outperforms every other region in the world.
  - askosh 7y ago
    I'm an Estonian, also a nordic country. We have a bunch of things we are years ahead of in terms of digital innovations (https://e-estonia.com/ https://e-estonia.com/), all while having a 1.3m population. What does the USA do better exactly?
    - verttii 7y ago
      Estonia is certainly performing well. But since it's so tiny it's really hard to compare against a giant like USA. Although much of the same problem applies to Nordics. We use Google, Facebook, Youtube, Snapchat, Whatsapp, Apple - all American products. Whereas the Nordic countries produce very few major digital innovations used globally. Also, I didn't know Estonia was a Nordic country.
      - askosh 7y ago
        Well, true, all the big players are from USA. But as far digital innovation inside of a nation go, and for the nation, USA needs to do a lot of catching up. Because while true that USA made a thing called "instagram influencers", it has done very little for its people. If by Nordic you mean Northern European, then Estonia is Nordic, all tho' often misrepresented as Eastern European.
      - mih 7y ago
        >> Also, I didn't know Estonia was a Nordic country. Relevant: https://satwcomic.com/party-crasher https://satwcomic.com/party-crasher https://satwcomic.com/imposter https://satwcomic.com/imposter https://satwcomic.com/new-nordic https://satwcomic.com/new-nordic A funny take on why other 'Nordic' countries don't think so
      - verttii 7y ago
        Ok I'm used to considering only Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Iceland as Nordic countries. They're also the only members of the Nordic council. Estonia I've always just considered a Baltic country, which I suppose is accurate as well. Not that these definitions really matter anyway.
mxuribe 7y ago
> ...often it does lead to better business results. I think you're absolutely correct...but, lately, I've been questioning the whole premise that better business results are even a worthwhile pursuit...at least for me personally. If I bring in an additional $1MM of new value every year for my employer, i had to work really hard for that, and i only get a little pat on the head; and in the process have lost so much (mentally, physiologically, etc.). Certainly, I'm going through an existential change in my life, and as such little to no amount of justification of an American capitalist approach will make as much sense for me...But, nowadays, i really just want to chill a little bit, slow down, smell the roses, etc. And, ultimately, it feels for me that the U.S. seems like less of a place - profession-wise - to enable one to do that. (Sorry for the gloom.)
Someone1234 7y ago
I dispute the "better business results" claim, I don't think that's factually true. But let's assume it is, why then is wealth so much more concentrated[0] in the US? Let's assume that the US did have "better business results" and let's also assume that that is the result of worse working conditions. Why then are the workers, working in worse conditions, not benefiting from it directly? Seems like, if that were true, the US is working average workers harder so that the ultra-wealthy can get even wealthier. Does that benefit society at large? PS - I'd like to link this, called "The Nordic Model"[1] discusses a lot of good (and bad) about that part of the world. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality#OECD_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... [1] https://economics.mit.edu/files/5726 https://economics.mit.edu/files/5726
- verttii 7y ago
  In contrast, if USA is not performing better then why are most of the digital innovations of US origin? Why do like half of the world's tech billionaires live in Silicon Valley? While Finland has maybe 1? The Scandinavian countries focus on leveling the playing field for everyone. It allows the less privileged to build a good life, but it also hinders the most ambitious ones. Whereas USA is happy to focus on the extremes, allowing places like Silicon Valley to flourish. We can argue endlessly whichever is better for the society, but professionals often choose the place to live based on what is best for them, not what political model some place runs on.
  - rficcaglia 7y ago
    Low taxes. Edit: not anecdotal. I personally know 3 execs from Scandinavian countries who tell me this is why they moved here. Also health care. They travel back to EU for routine stuff, but when they need elective procedures or advanced treatments you just cannot get those back in the EU.
    - danmaz74 7y ago
      > They travel back to EU for routine stuff, but when they need elective procedures or advanced treatments you just cannot get those back in the EU Which advanced procedures aren't available in the EU? By the way, you can find private clinics in most EU countries if you don't want to use public health providers.
coldtea 7y ago
>On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not. Like what? From birth mortality to all kinds of quality of life indicators its well below most of these countries...

AdrianB1 7y ago

I am working in an American company for 17.5 years, most from home (12 years) with occasional visits to the local branch office (Europe) and sometimes to the headquarter in US. I work on different time zones as needed and it gives me some flexibility, but longer hours to make up for it. It works for me, but for each case where it worked I have another 5 where it was so and so and probably 10 where it was bad for the employee. This is because people tend to work longer hours, lose connection with the team (they are not in the office at the same time), it is harder to find someone when you need them because they work different hours that change a lot. Flexible working has advantages, but it also has disadvantages and trust is not part of the equation most of the time, presence, interactivity and coordination, human connections that are created face to face, these are much more important.