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My girlfriend is the same, this Hong Kong issue has been quite the discussion point whenever something news worthy happens. I'm pretty sure some of my beliefs h

by bidluo 7y ago

My girlfriend is the same, this Hong Kong issue has been quite the discussion point whenever something news worthy happens. I'm pretty sure some of my beliefs has been swayed by western propaganda but she believes China is not in the wrong here, she knows loosely about 1984 and is aware of what's happening with muslims but with HK she and a lot of my other mainland friends think the protesters are destroying everything, who knows how their opinions shape if China decides to start cleansing HK but it's interesting to see how deep this ideology is rooted and it's even more interesting to see her opinions change the longer she lives in a democratic country (like she tried talking about Xi Jinping to her mainland friends but they told her to cut it out since she forgot about the lack of free speech over there). I think everyone has different definitions of freedom, some might think it only means to be physically free but lack of free speech and lack of proper human rights are a-ok because they don't know any better.

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
Everyone feels a lack of free speech about issues they want to discuss. The hard part is establishing a shared understanding that some issues you'd like to discuss will always end up being inconvenient to the powers that be. Most Chinese citizens I've seen discuss the issue argue that they're simply immune to the problem; that as long as you're a responsible person just trying to live a good life, the government won't end up strongly interfering with what you want to say.
- markus_zhang 7y ago
  True. Actually discussing the leaders doesn't do anyone any good. For one, how do you know the things you being fed are real? And what are you going to do if it's real/not real? Just venting? If you don't like the leadership, there are plenty of other ways to improve that, but talking is the cheapest.
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    And that all sounds well and good to most people, until it's their dad who the leaders decide should be shipped off to a re-education camp. But it's too late at that point; even if I go around yelling to everyone that my dad's not a terrorist, they know just as well as I once did that yelling at government leaders means I'm a cheap agitator with nothing better to do.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
    So, your suggestion is that change should be organized without talking about it, did I understand that right? Gee, the authoritarian brainwashing really is strong with you.
    - markus_zhang 7y ago
      No. You misundertood. Changes cannot be achieved by simple talking. You have to complain and do things if it doesn't work. BTW I agree with peaceful protesters.
      - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
        > You misundertood. Quoting you: > Actually discussing the leaders doesn't do anyone any good. So: No, I didn't. > Changes cannot be achieved by simple talking. Yes, they can. And are. Constantly. > You have to complain and do things if it doesn't work. No. For one, many things can be changed by talking, and talking only. But also, there is absolutely nothing wrong if someone only talks about things being bad where action besides talking is required to change things. It's neither morally wrong, nor is it useless, if your talking is what enables others to implement the changes. What actually is completely useless is complaining about people only talking about a problem. Absolutely nothing useful can possibly come from that. But it's a common fallacy used by authoritarians and parroted by their followers, nothing particularly special to China. Which is the general impression I get from a lot of your arguments in this discussion: Tons of typical authoritarian fallacies the likes of which you would also hear from right-wing nationalists in "western countries".
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
nailer 7y ago
What does she think of Tiananmen Square?
- bidluo 7y ago
  Not really sure, it's a bit mixed. She knows about the event and people died but not the specifics like Tank Man, the APC pies, mowing down students at chokepoints etc She didn't know about the event until I told her so she probably doesn't have a strong opinion either way just knows it was bad. It's a hard subject to broach.

by bidluo 7y ago

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

Everyone feels a lack of free speech about issues they want to discuss. The hard part is establishing a shared understanding that some issues you'd like to discuss will always end up being inconvenient to the powers that be. Most Chinese citizens I've seen discuss the issue argue that they're simply immune to the problem; that as long as you're a responsible person just trying to live a good life, the government won't end up strongly interfering with what you want to say.

markus_zhang 7y ago
True. Actually discussing the leaders doesn't do anyone any good. For one, how do you know the things you being fed are real? And what are you going to do if it's real/not real? Just venting? If you don't like the leadership, there are plenty of other ways to improve that, but talking is the cheapest.
- SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
  And that all sounds well and good to most people, until it's their dad who the leaders decide should be shipped off to a re-education camp. But it's too late at that point; even if I go around yelling to everyone that my dad's not a terrorist, they know just as well as I once did that yelling at government leaders means I'm a cheap agitator with nothing better to do.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
  So, your suggestion is that change should be organized without talking about it, did I understand that right? Gee, the authoritarian brainwashing really is strong with you.
  - markus_zhang 7y ago
    No. You misundertood. Changes cannot be achieved by simple talking. You have to complain and do things if it doesn't work. BTW I agree with peaceful protesters.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
      > You misundertood. Quoting you: > Actually discussing the leaders doesn't do anyone any good. So: No, I didn't. > Changes cannot be achieved by simple talking. Yes, they can. And are. Constantly. > You have to complain and do things if it doesn't work. No. For one, many things can be changed by talking, and talking only. But also, there is absolutely nothing wrong if someone only talks about things being bad where action besides talking is required to change things. It's neither morally wrong, nor is it useless, if your talking is what enables others to implement the changes. What actually is completely useless is complaining about people only talking about a problem. Absolutely nothing useful can possibly come from that. But it's a common fallacy used by authoritarians and parroted by their followers, nothing particularly special to China. Which is the general impression I get from a lot of your arguments in this discussion: Tons of typical authoritarian fallacies the likes of which you would also hear from right-wing nationalists in "western countries".
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]

nailer 7y ago

What does she think of Tiananmen Square?

bidluo 7y ago
Not really sure, it's a bit mixed. She knows about the event and people died but not the specifics like Tank Man, the APC pies, mowing down students at chokepoints etc She didn't know about the event until I told her so she probably doesn't have a strong opinion either way just knows it was bad. It's a hard subject to broach.