11 ms·

Why this stuff is even an issue is mind-boggling to me. In Canada we vote completely anonymously on a piece of paper. ID is verified at the entrance to the vo

Why this stuff is even an issue is mind-boggling to me. In Canada we vote completely anonymously on a piece of paper. ID is verified at the entrance to the voting area, but your identity is _in no way_ associated with the piece of paper you mark your vote on. The ballots are counted by hand with numerous bystanders/observers of whatever affiliation. It just works. We have no need for digital (aka hackable/tamperable/buggy) voting system. Global News has a decent article outlining why the system is so impervious to abuse: https://globalnews.ca/news/4049932/canada-2019-election-hacking/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4049932/canada-2019-election-hack...

52-6F-62 7y ago
In the Ontario provincial elections we used a hybrid system. They ballots are paper following the same process you described, but they're first inserted into a machine that tallies the counts electronically and the paper record stored in case of discrepancies that might call for a hand count.
- codedokode 7y ago
  Such scanning machines save the time of people counting votes (it takes at least several hours), but you cannot know if the machine hasn't been tampered with. To require re-couting the paper ballots you will need some kind of proof that the results are invalid.
  - greglindahl 7y ago
    ... you're describing the reason why people are calling for random audits of a subset of votes in every election.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >you will need some kind of proof that the results are invalid. are discrepancies between exit polls and election result valid reason?
    - ascagnel_ 7y ago
      Exit polls are considered non-scientific for a variety of reasons. A better option is human-readable paper ballots, as you can manually compile results from batches of ballots and run stop-loss audits on them.
- minedwiz 7y ago
  King County, Washington does something similar: https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/watch-us-in-action.aspx https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security...
the_snooze 7y ago
It's complicated in the US because it's the states that administer elections and IDs. Everyone does it differently, with different equipment, ID requirements, and allocation of election resources. Voter ID, for example, is contentious because a state can influence election turnout through decisions on where ID offices are located and when they're open. Edit: I always find it ironic that the Republican party--the party of limited government--wants people to have to go to the bastion of efficiency known as the DMV (!!!) in order to vote.
- rtkwe 7y ago
  Also some states have restricted early voting times and reduced the number of polling places open in some (typically poor non-white communities that vote more democrat) as a way of making it harder for certain minorities to vote. [0] > The U.S. Supreme Court rebuffed a Republican bid to revive a strict North Carolina voter-identification law that a lower court found deliberately discriminated against black voters, handing a victory to Democrats and civil rights groups. > The appeals court found that the law’s provisions “target African-Americans with almost surgical precision” and “impose cures for problems that did not exist,” concluding that the Republican-led legislature enacted it “with discriminatory intent.” [0] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/
- codedokode 7y ago
  In Russia we use an internal passport to vote. So the voter doesn't need any special documents.
  - the_narrator 7y ago
    that seems logical; I fail to understand the argument that some form of voter identification like this is 'racist'
    - mffnbs 7y ago
      Not directly racist, but it costs money and time to obtain a passport.
tick_tock_tick 7y ago
ID verification is a really big issue in the US the Democratic party is very strongly opposed.
- r00fus 7y ago
  Only because the GOP politicians make it difficult for lower-income and elderly to get IDs. Also the verification process itself can be often biased or outright discriminatory (ie, registration polls being inaccurate).
  - luxuryballs 7y ago
    Which GOP politicians made it more difficult for lower-income and elderly to get IDs? That would definitely be scandalous.
    - whateveracct 7y ago
      This is a systemic thing, not the work of a single villain with a face. Getting an ID is inherently more difficult for lower-income individuals for a variety of reasons. It doesn't have to be a specific GOP politician stopping people for it to be discriminatory.
      - drak0n1c 7y ago
        Assuming that people can't get IDs based on their demographic is also a form of discrimination. Weak ID requirements disenfranchise voters of all backgrounds by enabling the possibility of diluting their votes with fraudulent registrations and ballots. Los Angeles County had more registered voters than they have age 18+ citizens and recently were forced by lawsuit to purge 5 million invalid registrations from their rolls. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2LpFkVfYk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2LpFkVfYk https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on_its_rolls__140602.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_...
        7y ago
amrrs 7y ago
1.3 Billion votes on electronic machine that's proven multiple times it's hackable. Yet the Parties use that to showcase that they are advanced despite many people asking for Paper Ballot votes. It's quite ironic that a country that usually copies / adopts Western world isn't concerned about the fact how democracy is better handled in the west. Hope Canada stays strong with its democracy
clairity 7y ago
that's how it had worked in LA county for as long as i've lived here, but i've heard that they're changing the voting machines for the upcoming election cycle, so we'll see how it goes. it's angering to realize that some people will accept election fraud if it benefits them (while simultaneously decrying other unsubstantiated election fraud), regardless of moral or ethical concerns. cheating to win is losing in my book. hopefully the long arc of the moral universe corrects the harms eventually, if not soon.
dwheeler 7y ago
A big difference between Canada and the US is that in the US the "vote" is practically never for a single question, but for a much larger set of questions. You could still count by hand, but it takes longer. There are also more people in the US (around ten times more). You could still count votes by hand in US, but it would take more people or time to do it.
- amatecha 7y ago
  Ah yeah, we have definitely had multi-referendum votes. Still done on paper. For example, here's the ballot paper for most recent one we had in BC [0] (with only two questions): https://3yvac3s24fb2wj4gx27tcv71-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Ballot.jpg https://3yvac3s24fb2wj4gx27tcv71-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... [0] https://electionsbcca.blob.core.windows.net/electionsbcca/referendum/results.html https://electionsbcca.blob.core.windows.net/electionsbcca/re...

52-6F-62 7y ago

In the Ontario provincial elections we used a hybrid system. They ballots are paper following the same process you described, but they're first inserted into a machine that tallies the counts electronically and the paper record stored in case of discrepancies that might call for a hand count.

codedokode 7y ago
Such scanning machines save the time of people counting votes (it takes at least several hours), but you cannot know if the machine hasn't been tampered with. To require re-couting the paper ballots you will need some kind of proof that the results are invalid.
- greglindahl 7y ago
  ... you're describing the reason why people are calling for random audits of a subset of votes in every election.
- gruez 7y ago
  >you will need some kind of proof that the results are invalid. are discrepancies between exit polls and election result valid reason?
  - ascagnel_ 7y ago
    Exit polls are considered non-scientific for a variety of reasons. A better option is human-readable paper ballots, as you can manually compile results from batches of ballots and run stop-loss audits on them.
minedwiz 7y ago
King County, Washington does something similar: https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security-and-accountability/watch-us-in-action.aspx https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/elections/about-us/security...

the_snooze 7y ago

It's complicated in the US because it's the states that administer elections and IDs. Everyone does it differently, with different equipment, ID requirements, and allocation of election resources. Voter ID, for example, is contentious because a state can influence election turnout through decisions on where ID offices are located and when they're open. Edit: I always find it ironic that the Republican party--the party of limited government--wants people to have to go to the bastion of efficiency known as the DMV (!!!) in order to vote.

rtkwe 7y ago
Also some states have restricted early voting times and reduced the number of polling places open in some (typically poor non-white communities that vote more democrat) as a way of making it harder for certain minorities to vote. [0] > The U.S. Supreme Court rebuffed a Republican bid to revive a strict North Carolina voter-identification law that a lower court found deliberately discriminated against black voters, handing a victory to Democrats and civil rights groups. > The appeals court found that the law’s provisions “target African-Americans with almost surgical precision” and “impose cures for problems that did not exist,” concluding that the Republican-led legislature enacted it “with discriminatory intent.” [0] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/
codedokode 7y ago
In Russia we use an internal passport to vote. So the voter doesn't need any special documents.
- the_narrator 7y ago
  that seems logical; I fail to understand the argument that some form of voter identification like this is 'racist'
  - mffnbs 7y ago
    Not directly racist, but it costs money and time to obtain a passport.

tick_tock_tick 7y ago

ID verification is a really big issue in the US the Democratic party is very strongly opposed.

r00fus 7y ago
Only because the GOP politicians make it difficult for lower-income and elderly to get IDs. Also the verification process itself can be often biased or outright discriminatory (ie, registration polls being inaccurate).
- luxuryballs 7y ago
  Which GOP politicians made it more difficult for lower-income and elderly to get IDs? That would definitely be scandalous.
  - whateveracct 7y ago
    This is a systemic thing, not the work of a single villain with a face. Getting an ID is inherently more difficult for lower-income individuals for a variety of reasons. It doesn't have to be a specific GOP politician stopping people for it to be discriminatory.
    - drak0n1c 7y ago
      Assuming that people can't get IDs based on their demographic is also a form of discrimination. Weak ID requirements disenfranchise voters of all backgrounds by enabling the possibility of diluting their votes with fraudulent registrations and ballots. Los Angeles County had more registered voters than they have age 18+ citizens and recently were forced by lawsuit to purge 5 million invalid registrations from their rolls. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2LpFkVfYk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW2LpFkVfYk https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on_its_rolls__140602.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_...
      - 7y ago

amrrs 7y ago

1.3 Billion votes on electronic machine that's proven multiple times it's hackable. Yet the Parties use that to showcase that they are advanced despite many people asking for Paper Ballot votes. It's quite ironic that a country that usually copies / adopts Western world isn't concerned about the fact how democracy is better handled in the west. Hope Canada stays strong with its democracy

clairity 7y ago

that's how it had worked in LA county for as long as i've lived here, but i've heard that they're changing the voting machines for the upcoming election cycle, so we'll see how it goes. it's angering to realize that some people will accept election fraud if it benefits them (while simultaneously decrying other unsubstantiated election fraud), regardless of moral or ethical concerns. cheating to win is losing in my book. hopefully the long arc of the moral universe corrects the harms eventually, if not soon.

dwheeler 7y ago

A big difference between Canada and the US is that in the US the "vote" is practically never for a single question, but for a much larger set of questions. You could still count by hand, but it takes longer. There are also more people in the US (around ten times more). You could still count votes by hand in US, but it would take more people or time to do it.

amatecha 7y ago
Ah yeah, we have definitely had multi-referendum votes. Still done on paper. For example, here's the ballot paper for most recent one we had in BC [0] (with only two questions): https://3yvac3s24fb2wj4gx27tcv71-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Ballot.jpg https://3yvac3s24fb2wj4gx27tcv71-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... [0] https://electionsbcca.blob.core.windows.net/electionsbcca/referendum/results.html https://electionsbcca.blob.core.windows.net/electionsbcca/re...