6 ms·

> The big boss said "a 15 minute fact-to-face is better than a multi-day email chain" I can't believe that people who are so out of touch with reality are stil

> The big boss said "a 15 minute fact-to-face is better than a multi-day email chain" I can't believe that people who are so out of touch with reality are still given so much responsibility at companies which they effectively unknowingly misuse to make everyone's life miserable. There's nothing wrong about a multi day email chain. Sometimes it's the best communication tool, because non-critical/important things can be more efficiently being discussed in an email chain which doesn't disrupt everyone's work day. Secondly it is a nice way of keeping a log of ideas, thoughts and compromises which essentially lead to the final conclusion/solution. This gets documented for free and people can reference back to that email chain in the future which is hugely valuable, especially when the "big boss" conveniently likes to forget his own decisions. Face to face lacks all of those nice features. Secondly... there's A LOT more alternatives and other options inbetween F2F and long email chains. People can work 99% remotely and travel into an office one every couple weeks or per month for team bonding time. Video conferencing is another great way of getting a F2F conversation done without the hassle of everyone being in the same physical place. More often video conferencing calls can even be more productive, because people are more conscious about the time spent in the call and also about the people who frequently contribute and those who just got invited along but never really participate. Makes it easier to trim attendees down to the ones who really need to be there and those who just can be sent a summary afterwards. I can only hope that your new big boss will quickly get sacked and replaced by some young blood who has heard of instant messaging and video conferencing. Good luck!

shrimp_emoji 7y ago
I've chatted online (in text) virtually my entire life, way more than I've actually talked, face-to-face or otherwise. My reading/writing comprehension's really developed as a result. Not only do people like me (even in my age range) seem relatively rare though, but it feels like talking IRL has some... weird clarity to it. Maybe it's because the lower info bandwidth but higher emotional bandwidth (?) forces a kind of expedience you can't get otherwise. This seems especially useful in open-ended, "planning" conversations. Maybe you can hold on to a lot of that with video/audio conferencing, but lag and tech issues are always salient. (But I'm technologically proficient and physically lazy, so I'd still rather deal with those than going somewhere.)
- Buttons840 7y ago
  How's the typing speed and habits of those opposed to text chat? It's not often asked about in interviews, but I've noticed some co-workers do not view typing as being fast and effortless like I do.
nimblegorilla 7y ago
> There's nothing wrong about a multi day email chain. Email chains can work for some things, but they mostly suck compared to face to face meetings. You never know if someone else is silent because they agree, they haven't read the whole email, or they haven't taken time to write a response. Most things able to be solved by email chains are better off in some sort of issue tracking or wiki system.
- ownagefool 7y ago
  Face to face meetings also suck because the extroverts own the floor. You don't know if people didn't pipe up because they agree, or because they aren't rude enough to stop Bob talking, and now it's too late.
  - thanatropism 7y ago
    I know both extroverts and introverts who are really bad at email type text communication.
    - wolco 7y ago
      Equal playing field.
      - thanatropism 7y ago
        You’re missing it. Check your textually-adept privilege. Seriously. I’ve always been a very good writer but people in STEM often aren’t.
        ecnahc515 7y ago
        And then when it's face to face, you have people who aren't lingually adept, what then? Take someone who speaks English as a second language. They may not be able to process what's being said in a face to face as fast as the topic is moving, but in an email thread they can take their time to read it all, and compose a response (which may take longer for them due to English being a second language). It's not as simple as either of you make it seem.
Consultant32452 7y ago
I get 100+ emails per day. I'm almost certainly not reading the multi day email chain unless someone IMs me to ask for my input on it.
- Buttons840 7y ago
  Anyone ever had a company forum? Like Discourse or similar? That seems like a better format. Chat + forum.
  - jimcsharp 7y ago
    I think that's what Slack is supposed to be - especially with Threads. So far it's just IRC with gifs where I work.
    - hombre_fatal 7y ago
      Slack has nothing in common with forums except that they named that feature "threads." It's only to pull a chat convo aside in a chat app.
- filoleg 7y ago
  That's what email rules are for. If there is a long email chain and I am not directly @mentioned in the body of the email, it automatically gets filtered away into a separate folder and stays unread there, while my inbox stays clean and up to date. If my participation is actually needed in the thread, I will be inevitably @mentioned by someone, and the email stays in my main inbox folder.
alexhutcheson 7y ago
I haven't found any mode of communication that's as effective for building trust as face-to-face interaction. Video conferencing, email, tickets, etc. all work well for the "Let's make a decision on this issue" or "Let's get this specific thing done" use-case, but it's much harder to actually get to know someone and build trust over those mediums. That's unfortunate, because trust between people on a team is a huge force multiplier for getting things done.
- eikenberry 7y ago
  And this is why you have occasional gatherings. To help establish trust and a better sense of community. Every remote position I've held has had at least a yearly get-together for just this reason.
  - mgkimsal 7y ago
    and... if you start 2 weeks after the last yearly get together... you're on the outs for a long time. nothing against yearly meetings, but would hope people have ways of getting together more often if the group decides its necessary.
    - eikenberry 7y ago
      You can have different forms of meet-ups as well. My current company has the yearly gathering, plus the employees who live locally have a monthly lunch. None of them are on my team, but it still makes for some nice work-oriented socializing.
  - viraptor 7y ago
    Also you can have small remote social gatherings. Have a lunch together from time to time (video, online) and chat about non-work things. Have an unlisted #team-offtopic channel. Things like that work in my experience if they're just available and not forced.
JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Managers meet - that's what they do. They can be profoundly out of touch with what engineers do. Thus, stupid statements like that one.
jonahbenton 7y ago
A non-trivial number of very senior people simply cannot read or write. They can process information about other people very quickly in f2f interactions, but when things are written down they are at sea. Video is also significantly less useful for these people. I have seen it in dozens, maybe hundreds, of execs I have interacted with over the years, including people I have worked very closely with. Sometimes it is varieties of dyslexia, sometimes ADD. Could be any number of other "disorders." It's not a preference/policy. It's just how they engage. Often it is best to recognize it, and engage with them on the terms that work best for them. And of course this is not new. Illiterate leaders have been with us since there has been literacy.
- biomcgary 7y ago
  As remote work increases (and capital starts flowing consistently to remote-oriented companies), I think we're going to see a shift in the personality types and skill sets of successful managers. Specifically, touchy-feely socializers are going to have a harder time because a) more documentation of previous communication makes backtracking more difficult and b) social manipulation is distinctly different when verbal vs text.

shrimp_emoji 7y ago

I've chatted online (in text) virtually my entire life, way more than I've actually talked, face-to-face or otherwise. My reading/writing comprehension's really developed as a result. Not only do people like me (even in my age range) seem relatively rare though, but it feels like talking IRL has some... weird clarity to it. Maybe it's because the lower info bandwidth but higher emotional bandwidth (?) forces a kind of expedience you can't get otherwise. This seems especially useful in open-ended, "planning" conversations. Maybe you can hold on to a lot of that with video/audio conferencing, but lag and tech issues are always salient. (But I'm technologically proficient and physically lazy, so I'd still rather deal with those than going somewhere.)

Buttons840 7y ago
How's the typing speed and habits of those opposed to text chat? It's not often asked about in interviews, but I've noticed some co-workers do not view typing as being fast and effortless like I do.

nimblegorilla 7y ago

> There's nothing wrong about a multi day email chain. Email chains can work for some things, but they mostly suck compared to face to face meetings. You never know if someone else is silent because they agree, they haven't read the whole email, or they haven't taken time to write a response. Most things able to be solved by email chains are better off in some sort of issue tracking or wiki system.

ownagefool 7y ago
Face to face meetings also suck because the extroverts own the floor. You don't know if people didn't pipe up because they agree, or because they aren't rude enough to stop Bob talking, and now it's too late.
- thanatropism 7y ago
  I know both extroverts and introverts who are really bad at email type text communication.
  - wolco 7y ago
    Equal playing field.
    - thanatropism 7y ago
      You’re missing it. Check your textually-adept privilege. Seriously. I’ve always been a very good writer but people in STEM often aren’t.
      - ecnahc515 7y ago
        And then when it's face to face, you have people who aren't lingually adept, what then? Take someone who speaks English as a second language. They may not be able to process what's being said in a face to face as fast as the topic is moving, but in an email thread they can take their time to read it all, and compose a response (which may take longer for them due to English being a second language). It's not as simple as either of you make it seem.

Consultant32452 7y ago

I get 100+ emails per day. I'm almost certainly not reading the multi day email chain unless someone IMs me to ask for my input on it.

Buttons840 7y ago
Anyone ever had a company forum? Like Discourse or similar? That seems like a better format. Chat + forum.
- jimcsharp 7y ago
  I think that's what Slack is supposed to be - especially with Threads. So far it's just IRC with gifs where I work.
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    Slack has nothing in common with forums except that they named that feature "threads." It's only to pull a chat convo aside in a chat app.
filoleg 7y ago
That's what email rules are for. If there is a long email chain and I am not directly @mentioned in the body of the email, it automatically gets filtered away into a separate folder and stays unread there, while my inbox stays clean and up to date. If my participation is actually needed in the thread, I will be inevitably @mentioned by someone, and the email stays in my main inbox folder.

alexhutcheson 7y ago

I haven't found any mode of communication that's as effective for building trust as face-to-face interaction. Video conferencing, email, tickets, etc. all work well for the "Let's make a decision on this issue" or "Let's get this specific thing done" use-case, but it's much harder to actually get to know someone and build trust over those mediums. That's unfortunate, because trust between people on a team is a huge force multiplier for getting things done.

eikenberry 7y ago
And this is why you have occasional gatherings. To help establish trust and a better sense of community. Every remote position I've held has had at least a yearly get-together for just this reason.
- mgkimsal 7y ago
  and... if you start 2 weeks after the last yearly get together... you're on the outs for a long time. nothing against yearly meetings, but would hope people have ways of getting together more often if the group decides its necessary.
  - eikenberry 7y ago
    You can have different forms of meet-ups as well. My current company has the yearly gathering, plus the employees who live locally have a monthly lunch. None of them are on my team, but it still makes for some nice work-oriented socializing.
- viraptor 7y ago
  Also you can have small remote social gatherings. Have a lunch together from time to time (video, online) and chat about non-work things. Have an unlisted #team-offtopic channel. Things like that work in my experience if they're just available and not forced.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

Managers meet - that's what they do. They can be profoundly out of touch with what engineers do. Thus, stupid statements like that one.

jonahbenton 7y ago

A non-trivial number of very senior people simply cannot read or write. They can process information about other people very quickly in f2f interactions, but when things are written down they are at sea. Video is also significantly less useful for these people. I have seen it in dozens, maybe hundreds, of execs I have interacted with over the years, including people I have worked very closely with. Sometimes it is varieties of dyslexia, sometimes ADD. Could be any number of other "disorders." It's not a preference/policy. It's just how they engage. Often it is best to recognize it, and engage with them on the terms that work best for them. And of course this is not new. Illiterate leaders have been with us since there has been literacy.

biomcgary 7y ago
As remote work increases (and capital starts flowing consistently to remote-oriented companies), I think we're going to see a shift in the personality types and skill sets of successful managers. Specifically, touchy-feely socializers are going to have a harder time because a) more documentation of previous communication makes backtracking more difficult and b) social manipulation is distinctly different when verbal vs text.