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This doesn’t make sense. The slaving government in ancient Egypt was supported for a long time. Just because a form of government exists doesn’t mean it isn’t

This doesn’t make sense. The slaving government in ancient Egypt was supported for a long time. Just because a form of government exists doesn’t mean it isn’t abusive to some of it’s people or to other countries.

Leary 7y ago
Just because a government is abusive to some of its people doesn't mean it has no value. Just look at the US
- 0xdeadb00f 7y ago
  The US is in an awful state. But they don't treat their own people as bad as China has. Is there an equivalent instance of the Tiananmen Square massacre in the US? (I'm asking, I don't know). The US has their fair share of issues but freedom to speak against the government has always been a big thing.
- egdod 7y ago
  The US government isn't abusive to its people though.
  - girvo 7y ago
    You can make a decent argument that it has been, and definitely is sometimes, for certain definitions of "government" and subsections of people. Whataboutism is lazy though, and I do find it telling that the go-to argument a lot of pro-China commenters across platforms use is exactly that...
    - egdod 7y ago
      When slavery was legal, sure. But in the last, say, 50 years (e.g., since the 64 Civil Rights Act)? I don't see it. Also, I'm not aware of multiple definitions for the US government.
      - pjanoman 7y ago
        Firstly, gay marriage has only been legal since 2015 federally — that's a type of abuse. But even if you don't think it is, the American Revolution had some type of value even though slavery was still a part of America's history. Therefore, America still provided some value even though it was abusing its citizens.
        egdod 7y ago
        > gay marriage has only been legal since 2015 federally — that's a type of abuse No, it isn't. > the American Revolution had some type of value even though slavery was still a part of America's history. Therefore, America still provided some value I never suggested otherwise.
      - adjkant 7y ago
        Police brutality, racially targeted drug operations by the CIA/FBI, and the ignoring of the AIDS crisis come to mind in the past 50 years. The civil rights act didn't magically solve everything. Those are just a few major things, plenty of others to go around.
        egdod 7y ago
        > Police brutality Actions taken by individuals who are employed by the government--especially when such actions are explicitly illegal--hardly count as an abusive government. > racially targeted drug operations by the CIA/FBI Got a link? > ignoring of the AIDS crisis Allocation of scarce resources in a way that you personally disagree with is not the same as an abusive government.
        adamsea 7y ago
        Homie. Chill.
        egdod 7y ago
        I’m chill. I’m also patriotic though, and so I respond when people make snide comments about how horrible and abusive the US is.
  - mycall 7y ago
    How do you define abusive?
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar.
ospider 7y ago
I'm not saying that the Chinese government is a good government. But a slaving government IS better than warlords. And historically speaking, the current government did unify China in 1949, which is a very important thing in Chinese culture. If we were to overthrow the Chinese government, can we get a better tomorrow for the Chinese people? The west have show us what happened in Middle East. Clearly, wars are not what we want. I'm saying that we want democracy, we do want that, but blaming it all to "the evil communist party" is not a good way show us how to get a democracy, please provide some practical guidance. Thanks.
- rickycook 7y ago
  i think the problem is that the current chinese government is going further and further away from what average chinese citizens would probably want, and them using misinformation to keep order hong kong has demonstrated, with some of the largest protests in global history, that they do not want the chinese government to interfere with the autonomy that they currently have. the chinese government has responded with misinformation to sway their population so that they can continue to constrain hong kong in ways that they don’t want the point isn’t really that the chinese government isn’t better than an alternative, it’s that it’s going in a direction further away from what it’s citizens would generally agree they want, and not allowing people the knowledge to even know it’s happening, let alone the freedom to have a discussion about alternatives
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > further and further away from what average chinese citizens would probably want Like "being raised out of poverty"? For large parts of the Chinese population, the biggest concern isn't 4G coverage or cultural appropriation at some college party.
    - rickycook 7y ago
      it’s not either or
- Aeolun 7y ago

Leary 7y ago

Just because a government is abusive to some of its people doesn't mean it has no value. Just look at the US

0xdeadb00f 7y ago
The US is in an awful state. But they don't treat their own people as bad as China has. Is there an equivalent instance of the Tiananmen Square massacre in the US? (I'm asking, I don't know). The US has their fair share of issues but freedom to speak against the government has always been a big thing.
egdod 7y ago
The US government isn't abusive to its people though.
- girvo 7y ago
  You can make a decent argument that it has been, and definitely is sometimes, for certain definitions of "government" and subsections of people. Whataboutism is lazy though, and I do find it telling that the go-to argument a lot of pro-China commenters across platforms use is exactly that...
  - egdod 7y ago
    When slavery was legal, sure. But in the last, say, 50 years (e.g., since the 64 Civil Rights Act)? I don't see it. Also, I'm not aware of multiple definitions for the US government.
    - pjanoman 7y ago
      Firstly, gay marriage has only been legal since 2015 federally — that's a type of abuse. But even if you don't think it is, the American Revolution had some type of value even though slavery was still a part of America's history. Therefore, America still provided some value even though it was abusing its citizens.
      - egdod 7y ago
        > gay marriage has only been legal since 2015 federally — that's a type of abuse No, it isn't. > the American Revolution had some type of value even though slavery was still a part of America's history. Therefore, America still provided some value I never suggested otherwise.
    - adjkant 7y ago
      Police brutality, racially targeted drug operations by the CIA/FBI, and the ignoring of the AIDS crisis come to mind in the past 50 years. The civil rights act didn't magically solve everything. Those are just a few major things, plenty of others to go around.
      - egdod 7y ago
        > Police brutality Actions taken by individuals who are employed by the government--especially when such actions are explicitly illegal--hardly count as an abusive government. > racially targeted drug operations by the CIA/FBI Got a link? > ignoring of the AIDS crisis Allocation of scarce resources in a way that you personally disagree with is not the same as an abusive government.
        adamsea 7y ago
        Homie. Chill.
        egdod 7y ago
        I’m chill. I’m also patriotic though, and so I respond when people make snide comments about how horrible and abusive the US is.
- mycall 7y ago
  How do you define abusive?
dang 7y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar.

ospider 7y ago

I'm not saying that the Chinese government is a good government. But a slaving government IS better than warlords. And historically speaking, the current government did unify China in 1949, which is a very important thing in Chinese culture. If we were to overthrow the Chinese government, can we get a better tomorrow for the Chinese people? The west have show us what happened in Middle East. Clearly, wars are not what we want. I'm saying that we want democracy, we do want that, but blaming it all to "the evil communist party" is not a good way show us how to get a democracy, please provide some practical guidance. Thanks.

rickycook 7y ago
i think the problem is that the current chinese government is going further and further away from what average chinese citizens would probably want, and them using misinformation to keep order hong kong has demonstrated, with some of the largest protests in global history, that they do not want the chinese government to interfere with the autonomy that they currently have. the chinese government has responded with misinformation to sway their population so that they can continue to constrain hong kong in ways that they don’t want the point isn’t really that the chinese government isn’t better than an alternative, it’s that it’s going in a direction further away from what it’s citizens would generally agree they want, and not allowing people the knowledge to even know it’s happening, let alone the freedom to have a discussion about alternatives
- luckylion 7y ago
  > further and further away from what average chinese citizens would probably want Like "being raised out of poverty"? For large parts of the Chinese population, the biggest concern isn't 4G coverage or cultural appropriation at some college party.
  - rickycook 7y ago
    it’s not either or
Aeolun 7y ago