6 ms·

This is the male version of "being basic." I cannot, for the life of me, see organizing and playing a twenty one kazoo salute for a dog I loved. Dear God, Ilse

• Causality1 7y ago
  Glad it worked out for him but for me she'd be packing a ton of red flags. Changing his fashion? Changing his diet? Watching the Hallmark Channel? >After a year of dating, Ilse began pushing for marriage >She said it’s difficult for an entrepreneurial woman in her 30s to find love with someone who has a good job >We had a back and forth, like playing chess. So she's actively trying to convince him to do something she knows he doesn't want to do. >One evening, Ilse said if I wasn’t going to be with her, I had to let her go so she could find someone else. "Giving ultimatums" appears on every single list of "signs of abusive relationships" you could care to find. If I had been this guy's friend I'd have been telling him to break up with her, and saying so regularly.
  • liability 7y ago
    Nature has cruelly given women who want children the ultimate ultimatum. If she is such a woman, giving men an ultimatum isn't abusive.
  • gamedori 7y ago
    Ultimatums are one of the best tools for people in terrible relationships to use: "Give up the bottle, or I leave." "Stop hitting the kids, or I call the cops." (Other ultimatums, such as "Marry me or I kill the dog" are obviously abusive.) In this case, the woman is forcing the man into a choice, but he still has a choice. "Show me that I'm not wasting my time or I leave" is in the grand scheme of things quite tame.
    • krageon 7y ago
      If you have to give ultimatums about abuse you should already have left.
      • jacobush 7y ago
        Should, yes, but with real people in real relationships it's rarely simple.
      • gumby 7y ago
        That’s easy to say from the outside. There are many reasons to call attention to things not working (e.g. the bottle example given above) and the ultimatum can be the last step. And when kids are involved (not in this case) it’s typically better for all concerned to have two parents if that’s possible. So you may hang in there longer than might look sensible from the outside.
        • mikeash 7y ago
          Having experienced the kid side of this both ways, let me say to any parents in this situation: if your marriage is shit, don’t “do it for the kids” because of some notion that two parents is better. Get that divorce! Your kids will be far better off with two sane single-parent households than one messed-up two-parent household. Neither is great but being the third wheel in a broken marriage is worse.
          • dsfyu404ed 7y ago
            That sounds all fine and dandy until the custodial parent goes out and finds a spouse that creates the same problems all over again. Then you've got the same situation but with three stakeholders and one with a lot less interest in the kids' outcome.
            • mikeash 7y ago
              I am well aware. But saying is a bad situation because you might get into a bad situation again is not a good strategy, and the fix for that problem is to get out of that problematic marriage too.
    • narrator 7y ago
      Threatening to leave being the only persuasive argument that works on your significant other is a good indicator you're dating someone with borderline personality disorder.
      • gamedori 7y ago
        Ordinary people occasionally need to be knocked back into seeing what they will lose if they keep up their present course of action. Life is full of temptations, most people are not very self reflective, and people naturally push boundaries. In particular, textual flirting with the opposite sex is something that is easy to fall into, starting innocently and delivering a strong dopamine hit with each correspondence. The dopamine-addled S.O. can easily rationalize to themselves that they are just writing, that their privacy is suddenly Very Important, it's not cheating, and surely that's not innuendo! ("When we finally meet for coffee we'll just be friends.") The well-delivered ultimatum, although blunt, makes the situation clear and leaves no room for rationalization: the emotions associated with the proto-affair are inappropriate to an exclusive relationship. I've had to make this ultimatum twice. 50% of the time it has resulted in the recipient suddenly becoming self-aware and making an effort to change her behavior. As a result, I'm quite certain the current S.O. is not BPD.
  • rosser 7y ago
    > ...if I wasn’t going to be with her, I had to let her go so she could find someone else. That's not an ultimatum, though I can see how it might read that way. She felt a need, which he wasn't meeting. She told him that if he wouldn't meet it, he needed to let her go seek its fulfillment elsewhere.
    • decoyworker 7y ago
      What need? The need to continue doing what they were already doing but under contract?
      • austhrow743 7y ago
        Clearly yes.
      • criddell 7y ago
        Some people see marriage as more than just a contract.
      • rosser 7y ago
        Just because you don't see a particular value in something does not mean it lacks that value for others. Frankly, I find this to be far more a "My way or the highway" kind of attitude than the quoted bit from The Fine Article — you don't seem even to concede the possibility of marriage being more than a "contract", when, for most people, that's among the least of what it's about.
    • maxheadroom 7y ago
      >She told him that if he wouldn't meet it, he needed to let her go seek its fulfillment elsewhere. This seems like a vague sense of displaced blame, however; so I can understand how people will view it as a red flag: There's nothing preventing her from leaving of her own volition but it's inferred that she has no possibility of choice (without him having to have made a choice) - even though he's already signaled his desires multiple times before. In that sense, it is an ultimatum but one that tries to absolve guilt by making the "decision-maker" the "owner" of the result/consequence - even though, in reality, both would suffer the consequences of the choice. Further still, is the impression inferred that she's a prisoner because she's "bound" to him because he needs to "let her go" if he won't fulfill her desire[s]; inferring that, somehow, he - alone - wields power over her self-agency. That doesn't quite make sense - when a healthy relationship should be two independent people sharing in the relationship "power" dynamic. In other words, it should not be so skewed that one has power/control over life, destiny, etc. of another. In this perspective, it does seem to be a very troubling red flag.
  • tcxqy 7y ago
    That's the current market of dating right here. Men have absolutely no power.
  • tonyarkles 7y ago
    I just read the article, and there’s an ambiguity there re: the fashion bit. Early in the story he talks about not needing to change his clothes. She may have changed his fashion, but she might also have just requested that he put on clean clothes!
    • dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      Yeah, the article didn't really give a good indication as to whether she just forced him to grow up and actually do his laundry once in awhile (perfectly reasonable) or threw out all his work jeans and painting shirts for being stained.
  • daodedickinson 7y ago
    I would far, far beyond gladly change far more than my clothes for anyone who would even finally show up to a first date with me. More and more of us are isolated from the rest of our species by the technologies interting themselves between us to create billionaires that we don't even have a friend that we could tell that we finally got to go on a first date. How could you tell me to break up with a human like this if I ever was so blessed? Does this change of perspective mean anything or help at all to anyone? I've been crying all night, almost every night for about 3 weeks now, sleeping 0 to 3 hours a night, because Google's Recapcha service a few weeks ago, for no apparent, communicated, or appealable reason decided to reject all of my captcha answers no matter how accurate they may be. This means I have been sent out to an internet leper colony so hideously lonely that I can no longer even post on 4chan or talk on Omegle. And you would tell this person to dumpster a real life in-person human being because she was worried she'd wind up as defenseless and alone as me. ...relationships have to get way more actually abusive to be worse than no relationship at all, which is the threat we frankly all face. Help please
    • acollins1331 7y ago
      Hey man. It's hard being an introvert but you sound pretty cool... Just try to talk to people in real life the way you can articulate yourself on Omegle. The trick is just finding a group that is as nerdy and introverted as you. I joined the chess club and it helps a lot. Everyone needs someone. For some people it takes a long time to make friends so you just need an activity where you see the same people everytime you go, like chess club or something. Try finding a local group that you're interested in the activity and you'll find friends. I can't help you with the girl advice though, same boat.
    • jddj 7y ago
      I absolutely hate that I'm giving this advice, but in a state of desperation you should be able to overcome the recapture exile by making a Google account, logging into gmail, using Chrome (logged in) and not using Tor or a VPN. It's a terrible state of affairs that this might be what's required to access the fucking internet (@Google, @Cloudflare), but it's better than what it sounds like your alternative has become. On a different note, here's what you might tell yourself if you were in a relaxed and emotionally healthy enough state to think clearly and positively (it's very hard like to think like this when you're deep in the mires of it all, but maybe it will help): - if you're in a part of the world which allows it this time of year, get outside and get a little sun most days. - find a hobby which needs to be done outside of the house. Even if you only like to read, do it outside where you will come into contact with other people outside of a work environment. Then work up to other hobbies which can be done either individually or socially (indoor rock climbing, learning a language, music, cycling, lifting weights, whatever). - get and appreciate some little wins in your hobbies and reconnect that pathway which says that if you work at something you can achieve it, that you can enjoy yourself and that you're a normal human. - go to places regularly and smile and nod at the people who you recognise. If you like music, go to gigs or places where people with similar tastes tend to be. - start face to face conversations with people with no expectations for where it will go, even if it's ordering a coffee or commenting on the weather. Ideally, look for something (non-sexual) which you appreciate about someone and casually let them know. Maybe aim for doing this once per day. Start conversations with "wow, I wish I could do that/that looks like so much fun. How did you get started?" - when you get talking to people, mention any interests which come up which you also share (or might share, if you explored it). Mention any hurdles you've had in pursuing them and that you'd like to find a way to overcome them. If they extend an offer to help (by offering to let you know the next time they're doing it, for example), take the chance to exchange details. - follow up with people, if you feel like it makes sense. A lot of "ohh for sure, we should definitely do something!" talk happens, particularly when alcohol is involved, but you can break through that (or see it for what it is) with a follow-up message some time later. Don't be needy, but you're basically just letting them know that you meant what you said about wanting to hang out. - find some friends this way before you let yourself start thinking about a relationship. Relationships are messy and it helps to have friends who can help you ride out the lows, and, as you mentioned, share the highs. The thing is, being social and having a social life both take work and can be forgotten, just like any other skill. Despite the dystopia which we can be mistaken in believing when we look at the state of social media and the internet, the real world is still out there to be a part of, more or less just like it was before. This varies a lot depending on where you are, but in general people are looking to get through their day as positively as possible and if they can make a new friend and it feels natural enough then they would generally like to.
  • dragonwriter 7y ago
    > "Giving ultimatums" appears on every single list of "signs of abusive relationships" you could care to find. “If you don't ____, I will ____.” boundary setting statements with consequences are as likely to show up on lists of how to deal with relationships with communication problems as ultimatums are to show up on lists of signs of abusive relationship.
• newsgremlin 7y ago
  Maybe he missed out a lot of redeeming qualities about Ilse that made him go through with the marriage. From the content of the article he doesn't seem completely on-board with it, and makes her seem callous towards the death of his dog for the sake of _her_ big day.
• dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  I agree. It's like he's going down the list of boxes an urban millennial hipster is supposed to check. Once drove an old Toyota... check Plastered said Toyota in the kind of bumper stickers you usually have to be a Prius driving tenured professor to amass... check Ethically sourced pet... check Uses said dog to woo women on tinder... check Girlfriend makes demands and he caves to them... check Doubles down by marrying her... check Had the author gone on to discuss his preferred micro-brews, farmers markets and the best way to die your hair blue I would have assumed this was a satirical piece. I have no problems with the people who do all these things. I check a few of these boxes myself. I take issue with the people who broadcast it like it's something virtuous.
• MaconBacon 7y ago
  It's the Manic Pixie Dream Male.
• j-c-hewitt 7y ago
  I got the feeling that he likes his dead dog more than the wife he met on... Tinder. If my wife had diabetes, or really any medical condition, I would never reveal that in and article written in the New York Times. Her nagging him and having diabetes appear to be her only qualities from his description in the article. All I get from this is that Dusty was an awesome celebrity dog who died and this guy's wife whom he met on Tinder sucks and is diabetic. The structure also implies that he put his dog down so that he wouldn't get in between him and his bullying wife. I would never write anything disparaging or potentially embarrassing about my wife in a public article.
• PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  > This is the male version of "being basic." As far as I can tell, "basic" as an insult usually means "having a sincere and unashamed interest in something I'm not into."
  • reroute1 7y ago
    Except that would work both ways. Whereas basic is something negatively connotated with everyday activities, not those of the elite (vacationing in exotic places or whatever they do... can't really be called basic even if you're not into it)
    • PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      My point is that it's about shaming people for things that are harmless, but socially frowned upon. The specific category of thing doesn't matter. If you love Magic: The Gathering, you're a nerd; if you love pumpkin spice lattes, you're basic. You shouldn't take either one seriously, or listen to people who use them as unironic insults.
      • reroute1 7y ago
        Yes agreed and the best part about this is that it quickly transitioned to being recognized as a silly term and used tongue in cheek