6 ms·

If we burn, you burn with us

96 points by jmsflknr 7y ago

wehrkeoruw 7y ago
I wonder if there are tactics being learned by other governments (or future potential rioters!) here about how to deal with ongoing instability caused by rioting. At this scale, these don't happen often, so is there a "meta" being played out by the two sides?
- ilaksh 7y ago
  It's not rioting.
  - wehrkeoruw 7y ago
    Fair enough, what should I be calling it? Genuine question, not sure.
    - rpedela 7y ago
      Protest
    - breakyerself 7y ago
      An Uprising
    - jazzyjackson 7y ago
      It's a demonstration or a protest. FWIW, there's an extra layer to language here where China gov't calls them rioters, so by your choice of words you choose sides.
      - wehrkeoruw 7y ago
        Yeah, I realized that after I wrote it, sorry.
esotericn 7y ago
Based on the headline I thought this would be an article about billionaires in their bunkers after we've hit 5c warming. Good read nonetheless. Let's hope for some sort of reasonable resolution...
ummonk 7y ago
Can’t mainland China just let Hong Kong burn itself? There seems to be little incentive for China to either provide reforms (which would embolden the protestors) or do an authoritarian crackdown (the everyone burns scenario). It would seem they can just wait it out and let the protests paralyze Hong Kong until even local sentiments turn against them.
- HenryBemis 7y ago
  There is no sense into trying to find a rational action/reaction from China. It is one of those states that meet resistance with blood. Always have. Most likely always will. They play the looooooong game (like Russia and Turkey). It is like a chess game to them. Popularity is just a chess piece and they can win it back in 20 years, with some other Olympic Games or similar. They gain some land forever (Cyprus, HK, you-name-it), while the democracy wolves howl in the dark/background, in vain. And if/when they ever need to win back popularity points they will take a few steps to sneak their way out of this. Edit: a couple of typos/grammatic errors.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > It is one of those states that meet resistance with blood. Always have. Isn't that pretty much "any country on earth that is strong enough to do that"? Civil society may protest all it wants, Iraq was still invaded. Another round of protests, but Libya was still bombed back into the dark ages.
    - habitue 7y ago
      America has made a lot of mistakes with its foreign policy, but it's disingenuous to act like the US has ever done anything like tiananmen square to it's own people in the modern era. There is absolutely a difference between how the United States responds to dissent, and how repressive regimes do
      - kk_cz 7y ago
        give orange man few more years
TaylorAlexander 7y ago
It’s pretty telling to me that this author (“the editorial director of the Bloomberg New Economy”) is so quick to dismiss full democracy. The people of Hong Kong are asking for full democracy are they not? If the people are asking for it why on earth is the author so willing to accept that this is out of the question? They do not want more puppets, even if appeasement might succeed...
- Zafira 7y ago
  I would argue it needs to be measured steps to get to that point. Hong Kong has seen that it is going to have a lot of its autonomy stripped away and that peaceful, sustained protests are more or less ignored, which is why it deteriorated into this. It's a tremendously patronizing attitude that Beijing has towards everyone; my suspicion is that Beijing views Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as wayward children that need to be brought back into the fold.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    You can't change who has final say in measured steps though; it is not a half-and-half proposition. It might be theoretically possible, but the complexity of such a system isn't at all stable and pressure can build quite quickly. It looks like China has been taking very mild measured steps towards change and it has resulted in the streets being clogged with protestors in ~20 years. Ultimately the people who control the army get to say what the rules are.
- irjustin 7y ago
  Why do you think the author is wrong? In 1997, China regained sovereignty over Hong Kong. It remains a SAR until 2047. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong So yes, people of Hong Kong are asking true universal suffrage just as you say, but I understand the sentiment to dismiss the claim because... how do you get there? It is literally a path that is blocked/unseeable with out some form of miracle. I'm legitimately asking - protest all you want, bring the city to a halt. What incentive does China have to allow it to remain a full democracy?
outside1234 7y ago
I am riveted by the protests - does anyone know if there is a way we can help them from afar?
- hker 7y ago
  Some concrete actions that could help Hong Kong: 1. For governments worldwide: 1a. Freeze the assets of senior officials of the Chinese and Hong Kong governments who violated human rights, in the style of Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019. 1b. Stop exporting crowd-control equipment to Hong Kong which could be used by the Police Force. 2. For citizens worldwide: 2a. Urge your governments to do the above. 2b. Stop collaborating with China in the research and development of surveillance technology, which is being used also in Xinjiang. 2c. Purchase goods and services not from Chinese sources. (Quoting a comment I made elsewhere)
- lukestevens 7y ago
  There's a list of options maintained here: https://github.com/hongkonggong/beyond-lennon-walls/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/hongkonggong/beyond-lennon-walls/blob/mas... (I came across this following @pinboard's tweets - not sure if it was linked directly though.)

96 points by jmsflknr 7y ago

I wonder if there are tactics being learned by other governments (or future potential rioters!) here about how to deal with ongoing instability caused by rioting. At this scale, these don't happen often, so is there a "meta" being played out by the two sides?

ilaksh 7y ago
It's not rioting.
- wehrkeoruw 7y ago
  Fair enough, what should I be calling it? Genuine question, not sure.
  - rpedela 7y ago
    Protest
  - breakyerself 7y ago
    An Uprising
  - jazzyjackson 7y ago
    It's a demonstration or a protest. FWIW, there's an extra layer to language here where China gov't calls them rioters, so by your choice of words you choose sides.
    - wehrkeoruw 7y ago
      Yeah, I realized that after I wrote it, sorry.

esotericn 7y ago

Based on the headline I thought this would be an article about billionaires in their bunkers after we've hit 5c warming. Good read nonetheless. Let's hope for some sort of reasonable resolution...

ummonk 7y ago

Can’t mainland China just let Hong Kong burn itself? There seems to be little incentive for China to either provide reforms (which would embolden the protestors) or do an authoritarian crackdown (the everyone burns scenario). It would seem they can just wait it out and let the protests paralyze Hong Kong until even local sentiments turn against them.

HenryBemis 7y ago
There is no sense into trying to find a rational action/reaction from China. It is one of those states that meet resistance with blood. Always have. Most likely always will. They play the looooooong game (like Russia and Turkey). It is like a chess game to them. Popularity is just a chess piece and they can win it back in 20 years, with some other Olympic Games or similar. They gain some land forever (Cyprus, HK, you-name-it), while the democracy wolves howl in the dark/background, in vain. And if/when they ever need to win back popularity points they will take a few steps to sneak their way out of this. Edit: a couple of typos/grammatic errors.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > It is one of those states that meet resistance with blood. Always have. Isn't that pretty much "any country on earth that is strong enough to do that"? Civil society may protest all it wants, Iraq was still invaded. Another round of protests, but Libya was still bombed back into the dark ages.
  - habitue 7y ago
    America has made a lot of mistakes with its foreign policy, but it's disingenuous to act like the US has ever done anything like tiananmen square to it's own people in the modern era. There is absolutely a difference between how the United States responds to dissent, and how repressive regimes do
    - kk_cz 7y ago
      give orange man few more years

TaylorAlexander 7y ago

It’s pretty telling to me that this author (“the editorial director of the Bloomberg New Economy”) is so quick to dismiss full democracy. The people of Hong Kong are asking for full democracy are they not? If the people are asking for it why on earth is the author so willing to accept that this is out of the question? They do not want more puppets, even if appeasement might succeed...

Zafira 7y ago
I would argue it needs to be measured steps to get to that point. Hong Kong has seen that it is going to have a lot of its autonomy stripped away and that peaceful, sustained protests are more or less ignored, which is why it deteriorated into this. It's a tremendously patronizing attitude that Beijing has towards everyone; my suspicion is that Beijing views Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as wayward children that need to be brought back into the fold.
- roenxi 7y ago
  You can't change who has final say in measured steps though; it is not a half-and-half proposition. It might be theoretically possible, but the complexity of such a system isn't at all stable and pressure can build quite quickly. It looks like China has been taking very mild measured steps towards change and it has resulted in the streets being clogged with protestors in ~20 years. Ultimately the people who control the army get to say what the rules are.
irjustin 7y ago
Why do you think the author is wrong? In 1997, China regained sovereignty over Hong Kong. It remains a SAR until 2047. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong So yes, people of Hong Kong are asking true universal suffrage just as you say, but I understand the sentiment to dismiss the claim because... how do you get there? It is literally a path that is blocked/unseeable with out some form of miracle. I'm legitimately asking - protest all you want, bring the city to a halt. What incentive does China have to allow it to remain a full democracy?

outside1234 7y ago

I am riveted by the protests - does anyone know if there is a way we can help them from afar?

hker 7y ago
Some concrete actions that could help Hong Kong: 1. For governments worldwide: 1a. Freeze the assets of senior officials of the Chinese and Hong Kong governments who violated human rights, in the style of Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019. 1b. Stop exporting crowd-control equipment to Hong Kong which could be used by the Police Force. 2. For citizens worldwide: 2a. Urge your governments to do the above. 2b. Stop collaborating with China in the research and development of surveillance technology, which is being used also in Xinjiang. 2c. Purchase goods and services not from Chinese sources. (Quoting a comment I made elsewhere)
lukestevens 7y ago
There's a list of options maintained here: https://github.com/hongkonggong/beyond-lennon-walls/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/hongkonggong/beyond-lennon-walls/blob/mas... (I came across this following @pinboard's tweets - not sure if it was linked directly though.)