12 ms·

Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

133 points by there 16y ago

jdp23 16y ago
The study's author "misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study." Oh, and he was paid by a law firm which was looking to sue vaccine manufacturers. The net result: vaccination rates dropped, and measles cases have gone up sharply.
philk 16y ago
The sad thing is even though the study has been thoroughly discredited[1], it continues to hang around and be cited by anti-vaccine activists. [1] Even sadder is that they cite Wakefield being exposed as a fraud as evidence of tampering by "Big Pharma".
- hartror 16y ago
  I get the impression that the tide has turned in the battle, and we should start seeing an improvement in vaccination rates over the next few years. Pity there will be a large lag as children who weren't immunized grow up and continue to get sick from these preventable diseases.
  - jerf 16y ago
    There doesn't have to be a lag; if you have not gotten or spread the disease but get your immunization late, no concrete damage has occurred. It's not like the immunizations only work when you're two, they'll work anytime.
    - hartror 16y ago
      Absolutely, but once a child has left the normal cycle of immunization either the parents or the government need to make an effort to get them up to date. IMO this by and large won't happen without either policies in place or a large public interest campaign directed at it.
      - yardie 16y ago
        Are children still accepted into schools without their vaccinations? I know when I was a kid I had to bring a card with all my shots or they wouldn't enroll me. So has this requirement been dropped? And to get a VISA for some countries you need to bring that card.
        bm98 16y ago
        In most US states, a parent can apply for a religious exemption that will allow them to enroll their child in school without one or more of the required immunizations. Some states even offer "philosophical" exemptions. The National Conference of State Legislatures maintains a list of exemption statutes by state: http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14376 http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14376
        electromagnetic 16y ago
        IIRC here in Canada you have to have all your vaccinations or by-and-large you will not be accepted into any school. However, I don't remember this being needed in the UK, but then again I remember getting shots during class time so I probably never paid enough attention because everyone got the vaccinations.
  - dhyasama 16y ago
    I have a two year old so have been doing the vaccination dance recently. We take her to a pediatric nurse practitioner at a rather alternative practice (they even have a shaman) and she advises getting the MMR vaccine. If the vaccine is standard there, then that is a strong indicator supporting your statement that the tides have turned.
- Alex3917 16y ago
  "The sad thing is even though the study has been thoroughly discredited, it continues to hang around and be cited by anti-vaccine activists." Unlike HN commenters constantly promoting dangerous psychiatric drugs that are no more effective than placebos, extrinsic rewards for children who read/exercise, Bill Gates' KIPP-based school reforms, the conflation of homeopathic and naturopathic medicine, using GPA for hiring, etc.
  - ryanwaggoner 16y ago
    Where are the HN users you're talking about? Promoting using GPA for hiring? That doesn't sound like the anti-higher-education HN I know and love/tolerate :)
    - Alex3917 16y ago
      Fair enough, a lot of people in general obviously do that though. I guess my point is that I see people posting stuff here all the time that's contradicted by science, but people only call it out on socially acceptable issues. For example, if I had a dollar for every time I saw someone on HN criticizing the methodology of a study they haven't actually read then I wouldn't be doing a startup right now. And yet these posts rarely get downvoted.
      - shadowpwner 16y ago
        If you don't mind, can you cite an example?
        Alex3917 16y ago
        http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2068635 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2068635
        JoachimSchipper 16y ago
        7 points is not massive agreement - the first response criticizing this point has more points (as of this writing - it may have been different.)
- aheilbut 16y ago
  The sad thing is that for a lot of this sort of propaganda to be effective, it don't have to prove anything; it suffices to just raise the question and spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
  - dmlorenzetti 16y ago
    While the book doesn't touch on vaccines, I found Oreskes & Conway's "Merchants of Doubt" a fascinating read on the subject of how easy it is to spread FUD (or at least UD) about science.
- dkarl 16y ago
  Even sadder is that they cite Wakefield being exposed as a fraud as evidence of tampering by "Big Pharma". As much as I'm convinced this guy is scum and perpetrated a cynical fraud for his own professional and monetary gain, I have to admit this is a fair accusation if you replace "Big Pharma" by the medical community as a whole. It was done with good intentions, but the way they treated the study (and Wakefield) proves that the science is subject to non-scientific considerations. Wakefield's study was accepted and published and didn't immediately cause a scandal, so there must be hundreds of published papers just as shoddy, many of them containing fraud perpetrated for an author's professional gain. Far from ending careers and discrediting ideas, the vast majority of those papers will continue to boost careers and promote their conclusions in some small way until the journals are dusty and forgotten. Wakefield's study was singled out for special justice in order to manipulate the public debate on vaccines. It was done in the name of truth, will certainly save lives, and didn't inflict on Wakefield anything he didn't deserve. However, it was "tampering" with the normal process, it was done as propaganda, and it was also done for PR motivations, to compensate for the impression that the medical community was complicit in Wakefield's fraud by holding his science to such low standards. It isn't sad if people notice that. It's just sad that the medical community was forced to stage a show trial to put an end to Wakefield's deadly and self-serving BS.
carey 16y ago
This isn't particularly new; here’s an article with more details from August 2008, from Ben Goldacre’s book Bad Science: http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/ http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/ Also worth reading is Roald Dahl’s account of his eldest daughter’s measles infection at http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715 http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715 .
- FluidDjango 16y ago
  The news isn't new. But it is welcome news that the "mainstream" media is giving it play - since negative results generally get neglected. Especially compared to dramatic, scary faux findings.
- hartror 16y ago
  The latest developments being reported are new. Previously the study had been found to be erroneous, it is now been decided parts of the study are outright fraudulent. There is a big difference between fraud and making mistakes. Mistakes in study methodology or in drawing conclusions are expected to happen in science, hence the peer review process. Fraud on the other hand usually ends a scientist's career.
jayzee 16y ago
Wow. It boggles the mind that somebody, a physician no less, would jeopardize children all over the world for half a million dollars. It is beyond comprehension.
- philwelch 16y ago
  In two respects, really--first, that it's reprehensible for a physician to jeopardize people's lives in this way, and second, that the magnitude of the motive (only half a million dollars) is nowhere close to the magnitude of this evil.
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jerf 16y ago
Poking around a bit, the British Medical Journal itself has a much more in-depth and interesting article on the web, which the CNN story is but a pale reflection of: http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full
- jdp23 16y ago
  great link, definitely worth reading the full BMJ article. Here's a quote from the senior clinician on the project, after the journalist presented information from one of the parents that conflicted with the data in the study: “Well I can’t really comment,” he said. “You really touch on an area which I don’t think should be debated like this. And I think these parents are wrong to discuss such details, where you could be put in a position of having a lot of medical details and then try to match it with this, because it is a confidential matter.” no wonder why so many people are losing trust in science ...
davidj 16y ago
Vaccines do cause autism. Here is a peer reviewed paper in the journal of Toxicological and Environmental Chemistry, the abstract: Mitochondrial dysfunction, impaired oxidative-reduction activity, degeneration, and death in human neuronal and fetal cells induced by low-level exposure to thimerosal and other metal compounds Authors: D. A. Geiera; P. G. Kingb; M. R. Geierc Abstract Thimerosal (ethylmercurithiosalicylic acid), an ethylmercury (EtHg)-releasing compound (49.55% mercury (Hg)), was used in a range of medical products for more than 70 years. Of particular recent concern, routine administering of Thimerosal-containing biologics/childhood vaccines have become significant sources of Hg exposure for some fetuses/infants. This study was undertaken to investigate cellular damage among in vitro human neuronal (SH-SY-5Y neuroblastoma and 1321N1 astrocytoma) and fetal (nontransformed) model systems using cell vitality assays and microscope-based digital image capture techniques to assess potential damage induced by Thimerosal and other metal compounds (aluminum (Al) sulfate, lead (Pb)(II) acetate, methylmercury (MeHg) hydroxide, and mercury (Hg)(II) chloride) where the cation was reported to exert adverse effects on developing cells. Thimerosal-associated cellular damage was also evaluated for similarity to pathophysiological findings observed in patients diagnosed with autistic disorders (ADs). Thimerosal-induced cellular damage as evidenced by concentration- and time-dependent mitochondrial damage, reduced oxidative-reduction activity, cellular degeneration, and cell death in the in vitro human neuronal and fetal model systems studied. Thimerosal at low nanomolar (nM) concentrations induced significant cellular toxicity in human neuronal and fetal cells. Thimerosal-induced cytoxicity is similar to that observed in AD pathophysiologic studies. Thimerosal was found to be significantly more toxic than the other metal compounds examined. Future studies need to be conducted to evaluate additional mechanisms underlying Thimerosal-induced cellular damage and assess potential co-exposures to other compounds that may increase or decrease Thimerosal-mediated toxicity. Keywords: autism; glial; lead; mercury; mercuric; neurodevelopmental http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a910652305~db=all~jumptype=rss http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a910652305~... The PDF of the paper is on the page. This is a peer reviewed article. Here is another one: "Vaccines May Cause Brain Changes Found in Autism" - Journal Acta Neurobiologiae Experimentalis 2010 http://www.autismny.com/2/post/2010/08/vaccines-may-cause-brain-changes-found-in-autism-journal-acta-neurobiologiae-experimentalis-2010.html http://www.autismny.com/2/post/2010/08/vaccines-may-cause-br... Nether of these papers were written by Wakefield. Just because we have a bad scientist doesn't mean the science is flawed. In fact, the "vaccine doesn't cause autism" scientist have been caught creating fruad as well: Scientist who "debunked mercury vaccines" caught in fraud, steals $2 Million, skips town A Danish scientist who was a key researcher in two studies that purport to show that mercury used in vaccines and the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine do not cause autism is believed to have used forged documents to steal $2 million from Aarhus University in Denmark according to reports in the Copenenhagen Post Online and a statement from Aarhus University. Poul Thorsen, MD PhD, headed up a research unit at Aarhus University that was hired by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to prepare a series of studies that would exonerate thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative and adjuvant used in vaccines, and the MMR vaccine from any role in causing autism. The veracity of the two studies he co-authored is now in doubt. These studies formed the foundation for the conclusions of several Institute of Medicine reports that claimed that it was highly unlikely that thimerosal or MMR were implicated in autism. In a statement Aarhus University officials said that believe Thorsen forged documents supposedly from the CDC to obtain the release of $2 million from the University. Thorsen resigned abruptly in March 2009 and left Denmark. Since then Thorsen has held several jobs in the US, first at Emory University in Atlanta and then at Drexel University in Philadelphia. Documents show that as late as January 22, 2009. Thorsen was employed at Drexel. Any reference to Poulsen has now been deleted from the Drexel website. http://info-wars.org/2010/03/11/researcher-who-said-mercury-in-vaccines-do-not-cause-autism-forged-documents-to-steal-2-million-from-university/ http://info-wars.org/2010/03/11/researcher-who-said-mercury-...
johngalt 16y ago
I don't understand the Anti-Vaccine crowd. I see no possible way for what they espouse to be morally responsible. Without vaccines the mortality rate of children to these diseases would be higher than the total rate of autism. This means that you would have more kids die than get autism even if every case of autism was directly caused by a vaccine. This leaves us with two options for the beliefs of the anti-vaccination crowd. 1. They believe that a dead child is better than one with autism. 2. They are comfortable letting everyone else's children take the "risk" of getting a vaccine while they sit back and rely on herd immunity.
- Mz 16y ago
  Those aren't the only two options. But I mostly avoid discussions like this on HN because the atmosphere here is pretty openly judgmental and hostile (a la your remark) so I don't see any real good coming out of trying to discuss it. It doesn't help that anyone here who is anti-vax tends to post in these threads in a manner that just promotes the view that we are all extremist nutcases, unfamiliar with basic logic, etc. So posting the type of remark you have just posted (in a forum that is already pretty biased on the topic) is highly unlikely to get you a real explanation of a third option. Thus you get your own "confirmation bias" stuff going on. Peace.
  - johngalt 16y ago
    I'm not hostile to opposing viewpoints. Truthfully I don't understand. Now you've mentioned it I'm trying to think of a third option would be something along the lines of "Vaccines could be applied differently than they are today". I haven't seen any evidence that supports that theory, but primarily I'm focused on people the refuse to vaccinate their kids at all. Not the ones that advocate different methods of vaccination.
    - Mz 16y ago
      3. They do enormous amounts of research and are very devoted parents who keep their kids healthy without prescription drugs or vaccines. They use diet, lifestyle changes and herbs/supplements (which are very respected in some "traditional" medicines) in place of what conventional/modern doctors would do to kids. I have a form of cystic fibrosis (as does my 23 year old son). I have gotten off 8 or 9 prescription drugs and gotten me and my kids healthier. A great deal of what I know about getting healthy I learned from an anti-vax/alternative health board that believes that vaccines and other sources of metal poisoning cause autism (and related disorders). (EDIT: I don't think it's quite that simple, but I do think that is certainly a factor.) Both my sons fit the profile for ASD. Getting the three of us healthier has dramatically reduced their ASD symptoms. My son with cystic fibrosis has not been on antibiotics for over 12 years -- more than half his life -- and has taken no medication whatsoever in about 4 years. Most people with CF take hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of "maintenance drugs" every month, more when they are "sick" (having an exacerbation). Most people with my genetic disorder get flu vaccines and pneumonia vaccines and other vaccines religiously. And they get gradually sicker and sicker until they die, usually at tragically young ages. I get a lot of flack off of people in the CF community for advocating non-drug approaches to the problem. I also get treated like I am some kind of irresponsible fruitcake and bad mother because none of us has seen a doctor in several years. We haven't seen a doctor because a) we aren't "sick" like we used to be and b) no doctor can help me improve on my track record of success. Doctors told me flat out to my face "people like you don't get well -- symptom management is the name of the game". I beg to differ. Thank you for your reasonable reply. Peace.
aj700 16y ago
can someone get Jenny McCarthy's view on this. She was a believer.
- ceejayoz 16y ago
  It'll be something along the lines of "Big Pharma did a hit job on him".
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
- ceejayoz 16y ago
  > They have spent a lot more time thinking about the risks and consequences than most of the other people, for whom there is no direct and immediate concern. This can be detrimental to rational examination of the facts.
_gtvz 16y ago
These conversations never go well. They are valid arguments to either side and nothing is conculsive. I think it is best to do your own research from medical journals/studies etc and do what you think is best for your children. I think that is one thing everyone here has in common, we all want to do what is best for our children.
- neworbit 16y ago
  Seems like the summary of the research is that there is a BLATANTLY FRAUDULENT argument on one side. Erroneous consensus or agreement to disagree is NOT superior to objective truth.
- henrikschroder 16y ago
  The whole problem with the vaccine scare is that some parents believe the FUD and make the actually rational decision that they'd rather have their kids get measles and live, than get autism and be damaged for life. These parents do what they think is best for THEIR children. But the cost for doing this is that OTHER children that rely on herd immunity will start dying of measles. So by having every parent do a local "optimization", the net result, an unvaccinated world, is much, much worse. And then to add insult to injury, it's just plain wrong that vaccines cause autism, so the parents that believe this are only making the world a worse place for everyone and not really doing what's best for their children in any way.
yannk 16y ago
What's the name of the law firm? This is criminal.
IvarTJ 16y ago
This has been known for several years by people who have followed Brian Deer’s investigations and the Autism Omnibus Proceedings. At the same time there have been massive targeting of parents of autistic children by quack therapists.

133 points by there 16y ago

jdp23 16y ago

The study's author "misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study." Oh, and he was paid by a law firm which was looking to sue vaccine manufacturers. The net result: vaccination rates dropped, and measles cases have gone up sharply.

philk 16y ago

The sad thing is even though the study has been thoroughly discredited[1], it continues to hang around and be cited by anti-vaccine activists. [1] Even sadder is that they cite Wakefield being exposed as a fraud as evidence of tampering by "Big Pharma".

hartror 16y ago
I get the impression that the tide has turned in the battle, and we should start seeing an improvement in vaccination rates over the next few years. Pity there will be a large lag as children who weren't immunized grow up and continue to get sick from these preventable diseases.
- jerf 16y ago
  There doesn't have to be a lag; if you have not gotten or spread the disease but get your immunization late, no concrete damage has occurred. It's not like the immunizations only work when you're two, they'll work anytime.
  - hartror 16y ago
    Absolutely, but once a child has left the normal cycle of immunization either the parents or the government need to make an effort to get them up to date. IMO this by and large won't happen without either policies in place or a large public interest campaign directed at it.
    - yardie 16y ago
      Are children still accepted into schools without their vaccinations? I know when I was a kid I had to bring a card with all my shots or they wouldn't enroll me. So has this requirement been dropped? And to get a VISA for some countries you need to bring that card.
      - bm98 16y ago
        In most US states, a parent can apply for a religious exemption that will allow them to enroll their child in school without one or more of the required immunizations. Some states even offer "philosophical" exemptions. The National Conference of State Legislatures maintains a list of exemption statutes by state: http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14376 http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14376
      - electromagnetic 16y ago
        IIRC here in Canada you have to have all your vaccinations or by-and-large you will not be accepted into any school. However, I don't remember this being needed in the UK, but then again I remember getting shots during class time so I probably never paid enough attention because everyone got the vaccinations.
- dhyasama 16y ago
  I have a two year old so have been doing the vaccination dance recently. We take her to a pediatric nurse practitioner at a rather alternative practice (they even have a shaman) and she advises getting the MMR vaccine. If the vaccine is standard there, then that is a strong indicator supporting your statement that the tides have turned.
Alex3917 16y ago
"The sad thing is even though the study has been thoroughly discredited, it continues to hang around and be cited by anti-vaccine activists." Unlike HN commenters constantly promoting dangerous psychiatric drugs that are no more effective than placebos, extrinsic rewards for children who read/exercise, Bill Gates' KIPP-based school reforms, the conflation of homeopathic and naturopathic medicine, using GPA for hiring, etc.
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  Where are the HN users you're talking about? Promoting using GPA for hiring? That doesn't sound like the anti-higher-education HN I know and love/tolerate :)
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    Fair enough, a lot of people in general obviously do that though. I guess my point is that I see people posting stuff here all the time that's contradicted by science, but people only call it out on socially acceptable issues. For example, if I had a dollar for every time I saw someone on HN criticizing the methodology of a study they haven't actually read then I wouldn't be doing a startup right now. And yet these posts rarely get downvoted.
    - shadowpwner 16y ago
      If you don't mind, can you cite an example?
      - Alex3917 16y ago
        http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2068635 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2068635
        JoachimSchipper 16y ago
        7 points is not massive agreement - the first response criticizing this point has more points (as of this writing - it may have been different.)
aheilbut 16y ago
The sad thing is that for a lot of this sort of propaganda to be effective, it don't have to prove anything; it suffices to just raise the question and spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
- dmlorenzetti 16y ago
  While the book doesn't touch on vaccines, I found Oreskes & Conway's "Merchants of Doubt" a fascinating read on the subject of how easy it is to spread FUD (or at least UD) about science.
dkarl 16y ago
Even sadder is that they cite Wakefield being exposed as a fraud as evidence of tampering by "Big Pharma". As much as I'm convinced this guy is scum and perpetrated a cynical fraud for his own professional and monetary gain, I have to admit this is a fair accusation if you replace "Big Pharma" by the medical community as a whole. It was done with good intentions, but the way they treated the study (and Wakefield) proves that the science is subject to non-scientific considerations. Wakefield's study was accepted and published and didn't immediately cause a scandal, so there must be hundreds of published papers just as shoddy, many of them containing fraud perpetrated for an author's professional gain. Far from ending careers and discrediting ideas, the vast majority of those papers will continue to boost careers and promote their conclusions in some small way until the journals are dusty and forgotten. Wakefield's study was singled out for special justice in order to manipulate the public debate on vaccines. It was done in the name of truth, will certainly save lives, and didn't inflict on Wakefield anything he didn't deserve. However, it was "tampering" with the normal process, it was done as propaganda, and it was also done for PR motivations, to compensate for the impression that the medical community was complicit in Wakefield's fraud by holding his science to such low standards. It isn't sad if people notice that. It's just sad that the medical community was forced to stage a show trial to put an end to Wakefield's deadly and self-serving BS.

carey 16y ago

This isn't particularly new; here’s an article with more details from August 2008, from Ben Goldacre’s book Bad Science: http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/ http://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/ Also worth reading is Roald Dahl’s account of his eldest daughter’s measles infection at http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715 http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715 .

FluidDjango 16y ago
The news isn't new. But it is welcome news that the "mainstream" media is giving it play - since negative results generally get neglected. Especially compared to dramatic, scary faux findings.
hartror 16y ago
The latest developments being reported are new. Previously the study had been found to be erroneous, it is now been decided parts of the study are outright fraudulent. There is a big difference between fraud and making mistakes. Mistakes in study methodology or in drawing conclusions are expected to happen in science, hence the peer review process. Fraud on the other hand usually ends a scientist's career.

jayzee 16y ago

Wow. It boggles the mind that somebody, a physician no less, would jeopardize children all over the world for half a million dollars. It is beyond comprehension.

philwelch 16y ago
In two respects, really--first, that it's reprehensible for a physician to jeopardize people's lives in this way, and second, that the magnitude of the motive (only half a million dollars) is nowhere close to the magnitude of this evil.

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jerf 16y ago

Poking around a bit, the British Medical Journal itself has a much more in-depth and interesting article on the web, which the CNN story is but a pale reflection of: http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full

jdp23 16y ago
great link, definitely worth reading the full BMJ article. Here's a quote from the senior clinician on the project, after the journalist presented information from one of the parents that conflicted with the data in the study: “Well I can’t really comment,” he said. “You really touch on an area which I don’t think should be debated like this. And I think these parents are wrong to discuss such details, where you could be put in a position of having a lot of medical details and then try to match it with this, because it is a confidential matter.” no wonder why so many people are losing trust in science ...

davidj 16y ago

Vaccines do cause autism. Here is a peer reviewed paper in the journal of Toxicological and Environmental Chemistry, the abstract: Mitochondrial dysfunction, impaired oxidative-reduction activity, degeneration, and death in human neuronal and fetal cells induced by low-level exposure to thimerosal and other metal compounds Authors: D. A. Geiera; P. G. Kingb; M. R. Geierc Abstract Thimerosal (ethylmercurithiosalicylic acid), an ethylmercury (EtHg)-releasing compound (49.55% mercury (Hg)), was used in a range of medical products for more than 70 years. Of particular recent concern, routine administering of Thimerosal-containing biologics/childhood vaccines have become significant sources of Hg exposure for some fetuses/infants. This study was undertaken to investigate cellular damage among in vitro human neuronal (SH-SY-5Y neuroblastoma and 1321N1 astrocytoma) and fetal (nontransformed) model systems using cell vitality assays and microscope-based digital image capture techniques to assess potential damage induced by Thimerosal and other metal compounds (aluminum (Al) sulfate, lead (Pb)(II) acetate, methylmercury (MeHg) hydroxide, and mercury (Hg)(II) chloride) where the cation was reported to exert adverse effects on developing cells. Thimerosal-associated cellular damage was also evaluated for similarity to pathophysiological findings observed in patients diagnosed with autistic disorders (ADs). Thimerosal-induced cellular damage as evidenced by concentration- and time-dependent mitochondrial damage, reduced oxidative-reduction activity, cellular degeneration, and cell death in the in vitro human neuronal and fetal model systems studied. Thimerosal at low nanomolar (nM) concentrations induced significant cellular toxicity in human neuronal and fetal cells. Thimerosal-induced cytoxicity is similar to that observed in AD pathophysiologic studies. Thimerosal was found to be significantly more toxic than the other metal compounds examined. Future studies need to be conducted to evaluate additional mechanisms underlying Thimerosal-induced cellular damage and assess potential co-exposures to other compounds that may increase or decrease Thimerosal-mediated toxicity. Keywords: autism; glial; lead; mercury; mercuric; neurodevelopmental http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a910652305~db=all~jumptype=rss http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a910652305~... The PDF of the paper is on the page. This is a peer reviewed article. Here is another one: "Vaccines May Cause Brain Changes Found in Autism" - Journal Acta Neurobiologiae Experimentalis 2010 http://www.autismny.com/2/post/2010/08/vaccines-may-cause-brain-changes-found-in-autism-journal-acta-neurobiologiae-experimentalis-2010.html http://www.autismny.com/2/post/2010/08/vaccines-may-cause-br... Nether of these papers were written by Wakefield. Just because we have a bad scientist doesn't mean the science is flawed. In fact, the "vaccine doesn't cause autism" scientist have been caught creating fruad as well: Scientist who "debunked mercury vaccines" caught in fraud, steals $2 Million, skips town A Danish scientist who was a key researcher in two studies that purport to show that mercury used in vaccines and the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine do not cause autism is believed to have used forged documents to steal $2 million from Aarhus University in Denmark according to reports in the Copenenhagen Post Online and a statement from Aarhus University. Poul Thorsen, MD PhD, headed up a research unit at Aarhus University that was hired by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to prepare a series of studies that would exonerate thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative and adjuvant used in vaccines, and the MMR vaccine from any role in causing autism. The veracity of the two studies he co-authored is now in doubt. These studies formed the foundation for the conclusions of several Institute of Medicine reports that claimed that it was highly unlikely that thimerosal or MMR were implicated in autism. In a statement Aarhus University officials said that believe Thorsen forged documents supposedly from the CDC to obtain the release of $2 million from the University. Thorsen resigned abruptly in March 2009 and left Denmark. Since then Thorsen has held several jobs in the US, first at Emory University in Atlanta and then at Drexel University in Philadelphia. Documents show that as late as January 22, 2009. Thorsen was employed at Drexel. Any reference to Poulsen has now been deleted from the Drexel website. http://info-wars.org/2010/03/11/researcher-who-said-mercury-in-vaccines-do-not-cause-autism-forged-documents-to-steal-2-million-from-university/ http://info-wars.org/2010/03/11/researcher-who-said-mercury-...

johngalt 16y ago

I don't understand the Anti-Vaccine crowd. I see no possible way for what they espouse to be morally responsible. Without vaccines the mortality rate of children to these diseases would be higher than the total rate of autism. This means that you would have more kids die than get autism even if every case of autism was directly caused by a vaccine. This leaves us with two options for the beliefs of the anti-vaccination crowd. 1. They believe that a dead child is better than one with autism. 2. They are comfortable letting everyone else's children take the "risk" of getting a vaccine while they sit back and rely on herd immunity.

Mz 16y ago
Those aren't the only two options. But I mostly avoid discussions like this on HN because the atmosphere here is pretty openly judgmental and hostile (a la your remark) so I don't see any real good coming out of trying to discuss it. It doesn't help that anyone here who is anti-vax tends to post in these threads in a manner that just promotes the view that we are all extremist nutcases, unfamiliar with basic logic, etc. So posting the type of remark you have just posted (in a forum that is already pretty biased on the topic) is highly unlikely to get you a real explanation of a third option. Thus you get your own "confirmation bias" stuff going on. Peace.
- johngalt 16y ago
  I'm not hostile to opposing viewpoints. Truthfully I don't understand. Now you've mentioned it I'm trying to think of a third option would be something along the lines of "Vaccines could be applied differently than they are today". I haven't seen any evidence that supports that theory, but primarily I'm focused on people the refuse to vaccinate their kids at all. Not the ones that advocate different methods of vaccination.
  - Mz 16y ago
    3. They do enormous amounts of research and are very devoted parents who keep their kids healthy without prescription drugs or vaccines. They use diet, lifestyle changes and herbs/supplements (which are very respected in some "traditional" medicines) in place of what conventional/modern doctors would do to kids. I have a form of cystic fibrosis (as does my 23 year old son). I have gotten off 8 or 9 prescription drugs and gotten me and my kids healthier. A great deal of what I know about getting healthy I learned from an anti-vax/alternative health board that believes that vaccines and other sources of metal poisoning cause autism (and related disorders). (EDIT: I don't think it's quite that simple, but I do think that is certainly a factor.) Both my sons fit the profile for ASD. Getting the three of us healthier has dramatically reduced their ASD symptoms. My son with cystic fibrosis has not been on antibiotics for over 12 years -- more than half his life -- and has taken no medication whatsoever in about 4 years. Most people with CF take hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of "maintenance drugs" every month, more when they are "sick" (having an exacerbation). Most people with my genetic disorder get flu vaccines and pneumonia vaccines and other vaccines religiously. And they get gradually sicker and sicker until they die, usually at tragically young ages. I get a lot of flack off of people in the CF community for advocating non-drug approaches to the problem. I also get treated like I am some kind of irresponsible fruitcake and bad mother because none of us has seen a doctor in several years. We haven't seen a doctor because a) we aren't "sick" like we used to be and b) no doctor can help me improve on my track record of success. Doctors told me flat out to my face "people like you don't get well -- symptom management is the name of the game". I beg to differ. Thank you for your reasonable reply. Peace.

aj700 16y ago

can someone get Jenny McCarthy's view on this. She was a believer.

ceejayoz 16y ago
It'll be something along the lines of "Big Pharma did a hit job on him".

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

ceejayoz 16y ago
> They have spent a lot more time thinking about the risks and consequences than most of the other people, for whom there is no direct and immediate concern. This can be detrimental to rational examination of the facts.

_gtvz 16y ago

These conversations never go well. They are valid arguments to either side and nothing is conculsive. I think it is best to do your own research from medical journals/studies etc and do what you think is best for your children. I think that is one thing everyone here has in common, we all want to do what is best for our children.

neworbit 16y ago
Seems like the summary of the research is that there is a BLATANTLY FRAUDULENT argument on one side. Erroneous consensus or agreement to disagree is NOT superior to objective truth.
henrikschroder 16y ago
The whole problem with the vaccine scare is that some parents believe the FUD and make the actually rational decision that they'd rather have their kids get measles and live, than get autism and be damaged for life. These parents do what they think is best for THEIR children. But the cost for doing this is that OTHER children that rely on herd immunity will start dying of measles. So by having every parent do a local "optimization", the net result, an unvaccinated world, is much, much worse. And then to add insult to injury, it's just plain wrong that vaccines cause autism, so the parents that believe this are only making the world a worse place for everyone and not really doing what's best for their children in any way.

yannk 16y ago

What's the name of the law firm? This is criminal.

IvarTJ 16y ago

This has been known for several years by people who have followed Brian Deer’s investigations and the Autism Omnibus Proceedings. At the same time there have been massive targeting of parents of autistic children by quack therapists.