10 ms·

'Plastic recycling is a myth': what really happens to your rubbish

96 points by SmkyMt 7y ago

dang 7y ago
Related and recent: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20549804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20549804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20433851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20433851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19889365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19889365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19399543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19399543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19346342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19346342 More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20550947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20550947
andrewstuart 7y ago
"Lie" might be a more appropriate word than "myth". The packaging/garbage manufacturing industry needs people to believe in recycling, otherwise they'll start asking "why the heck is the packaging industry spewing an infinite, never ending flow of garbage?". So far they have hidden behind the lie of recycling so people feel like it's not actually the problem it is. The only true solution is a small range of standardised returnable/washable/reusable containers - this is a huge business opportunity for whoever really nails it. Reusable/returnable containers for food, for e-commerce goods shipping, and also reusable containers just for buying stuff off the supermarket shelves. Think of the size of the market for a true solution for that. Why, for example, does Amazon not have a standard set of shipping box sizes which it not only delivers, but re-collects via the same logistics network?
- icelancer 7y ago
  >> Why, for example, does Amazon not have a standard set of shipping box sizes which it not only delivers, but re-collects via the same logistics network? It tried this with plastic bins. Customers just kept the bins. Enforce return by fining customers who don't return bins? What if they say they were stolen off their porch? You have a huge chain of custody problem here.
  - andrewstuart 7y ago
    >> You have a huge chain of custody problem here. So things will be awesome when the problem is solved. It's usually money that solves problems. Amazon customers want environmentally friendly shipping. So they pay the extra $5 deposit, which Amazon gives back when the container is returned. Those who don't want to return the container have paid for it. Then of course other companies and industries must become greener because customers demand it. And Amazon already has a solution in place for reusable/returnable shipping containers, so it becomes an even bigger win for Amazon when it sells reusable/returnable shipping container service end to end and manages all the chain of ownership stuff and absorbs the complexity and risk. As I say, it's a HUGE problem, so a huge win for whichever company implements what I've already set out above. Just needs to happen that's all. In the future, look for the option "Add $5 for shipping box return collection" on your favorite ecommerce site. And look to Uber to expand to "UberEnvironment" - their container collection service where they pay people to collect containers and return them to cleaning/reuse centers. There are so many, many, many delivery startups out there - they'll be able to expand not only to sending stuff to homes but collecting stuff (containers) from homes.
    - icelancer 7y ago
      >> Amazon customers want environmentally friendly shipping. Citation needed. They want it without the burden of... >>> So they pay the extra $5 deposit I highly doubt a large percentage of Amazon customers want environmentally friendly shipping that they have to pay a deposit for and mind a chain of custody. As I noted, Amazon literally already tried this and it didn't work. So, yeah, it's a problem. And eventually someone will fix it. But you act like Amazon hasn't tried it, and you're ignoring all the chain of custody issues with a deposit system that requires shipping rather than a customer-returns method that worked decades years ago when people shopped locally only. People on HN are pretty out of touch with the every day person, I think. These ideas sound really good to medium-high net worth individuals, but the average consumer on Amazon is not in that group and really does not care about the environment all that much if it is going to potentially hurt their pocketbook.
      - 7y ago
- doctorpangloss 7y ago
  > "Lie" might be a more appropriate word than "myth" This whole line of thinking is why stories like these get great engagement on social media and never really lead to any changes in behavior. A debate over whether omission or generalization are forms of lying gives you a fractal space of debate that's easy for non-experts to opine on. So go the articles to the top of the voting-based social media algorithms. And yet nothing gets done. As a non-expert whose only dog in this race is living on this planet with everyone else, I'd urge you to stop speculating on solutions. Look at people or movements that it seems everyone agrees with, especially across political divides. It's not going to be this really arcane stuff you're talking about, like shipping containers or whatever. Take electric cars for instance. Driving is this thing where everyone agrees they want to do it but they all hate other drivers. It's a unique political situation: agreeing with people that you should drive, and simultaneously hating those people! Electric cars give people what they want in a way that despite hating each other they'll agree, and if you pay attention to what environmental solutions (particularly technology) actually gets adopted, it tends to look like this. In your example, you're basically talking about something like electric cars, which is good, but then speculating you actually know what the packaging solution would look like, which is bad. People have even speculated about electric cars for a century! But if you really thought this was what the solution is, go and do it. Go and make those standardized boxes and try to sell them to Amazon. It's not about being right or wrong even though it feels that way. That's an illusion created by social media. Elon Musk's worst moments are when he's going into crackpot conspiracies. The reason he's beloved across political divides is all about going out and doing shit. But you ain't that guy, you don't have a billion dollars to transcend feeling good on social media. So you don't need to speculate about "garbage manufacturing industry" conspiracies or why Amazon does this or that. Go work for Amazon and create new packaging for them, or tell them what you would pay for, or support people who actually go and do the thing. But don't just click upvote and feel good.
  - guerrilla 7y ago
    > This whole line of thinking is why stories like these get great engagement on social media and never really lead to any changes in behavior Do you have evidence for the latter?
- api 7y ago
  Washing all that stuff in usual ways would use tons of water and soap and energy. It's possible that the cost of washing reusable containers would exceed the cost (in energy/resources as well as money) of making disposable plastic and paper. It's a really hard problem. A solution would have to figure out an efficient washing process as well as the form factors.
  - Rotareti 7y ago
    That's like saying a household on disposables would be cheaper than one on actual dishes. I haven't done the math, but I'm almost certain it isn't.
kinow 7y ago
In New Zealand it is easy to see the effects after countries stopped accepting our rubbish. We have a few landfill, but they are slowly piling up now. And NZ has always been popular for its green landscapes. So now the gov, councils, and local businesses started prohibiting some types of plastics. But it is still at early stages. Supermarkets have banned single use plastic bags, but pretty much everthing you buy still has plastic that goes to the landfill. Recycling here is also different from latin america. In latam normally you have multiple recycling bins... one for glass, one for plastic, one for paper, etc. Here we have a single container for plastic. Some times you find multiple bins, but that's still rare. In my company, there is one huge bin for cardboard only downstairs. One for paper (but only for confidential docs to be properly destroyed), and the bins in the kitchen areas, where you are supposed to throw only milk packages. I looked around where I could dispose oil, and a restaurant owner told me to just dump in the sink. He said there is a company that goes around the CBD collecting used oil, but only from businesses that pay for that. There is a place that collects electronics waste. But the collection places and dates are sparse, and I see a lot getting dumped in the normal waste. We still have a long way to go. At least the council here reports on landfills and is doing their part trying to promote green ideas https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/building-and-consents/types-resource-consents/earthworks/Pages/landfills.aspx https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/building-and-consents/ty...
OrgNet 7y ago
2 days ago, the recycling truck in my neighborhood picked up the trash bin of my neighbor in the same truck as the recycling (the neighbor put his trash bin out too late)... I'm pretty sure it all goes in the same place.
Reedx 7y ago
The largest recycling center in California, with almost 300 locations, actually just closed last week: “With the continued reduction in State fees, the depressed pricing of recycled aluminum and PET plastic, and the rise in operating costs resulting from minimum wage increases and required health and workers compensation insurance, the Company has concluded that operation of these recycling centers and supporting operations is no longer sustainable,” https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/08/05/californias-largest-recycling-center-business-closes-shuttering-300-redemption-centers/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/08/05/californias-largest-r...
shioyama 7y ago
> The present dumping ground of choice is Malaysia. Use of the term "dumping" makes me seriously question the article's storyline. Plastic garbage is not "dumped" in Malaysia, it is sold to buyers in Malaysia. If you wanted to dump it it would be much cheaper to do so at source. Ref: https://discardstudies.com/2019/05/06/adam-minter-how-things-flow/ https://discardstudies.com/2019/05/06/adam-minter-how-things...
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/09/indonesia-sends-rubbish-back-to-australia-and-says-its-too-contaminated-to-recycle https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/09/indonesi... > In May, the Malaysian government said it would return up to 100 tonnes of Australian waste because it was too contaminated to recycle. It was part of 450 tonnes of imported plastic waste it sent back to countries across the globe. Malaysia’s environment minister, Yeo Bee Yin, said the rubbish was infested with maggots and declared Malaysia would “fight back” and “not be the dumping ground of the world.”
  - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
    Am I the only one weirded out that this story keeps coming up and that everyone seems to ignore the whole "sending people something they didn't ask for when they paid for something else" aspect? It's like someone coming to pick up your old furniture to donate to Goodwill, mixing it in with bags of dog poop and selling it to them as "mixed furniture". Of course they're going to send it back. Of course they're going to be offended that you treat them with such disrespect. But it's untrue to say "Goodwill won't take any more furniture", they just don't want the dog poop.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      I don't disagree, but the issue is that picking out "the dog poop" wrecks the cost/benefit balance of recycling vs landfilling it all.
      - 7y ago
SubiculumCode 7y ago
I am not sure how much a return to glass would cost consumers. Taxing plastic might be required, unless someone can come up with a market based solution.
spodek 7y ago
You never need to use another plastic bottle, single-use cup, fork, or bag again for the rest of your life. Try this challenge: go for a week without using those things. However far you make it, I bet you'll find it easier and rewarding than you expect. The goal doesn't have to be to fix all the world's problems by yourself overnight, just a new experience. It will probably lead to institutional and government change faster than not acting and it costs nothing anyway. Everyone I know who has tried has continued because they enjoyed the experience. If you live in Flint or some place similarly polluted and need the bottles you can still do the experiment.
- stevesimmons 7y ago
  In my previous workplace, all my food, drinks, coffee, water was in disposable packaging. That is 230 food boxes, 690 coffee cups, 230 porridge bowls and lids, 460 plastic wrappers, plus plastic cutlery, etc. All up 2000 items of disposable plastic per year. At my new office, it is 100% reusable. Even my lunchtime salads are put in the reusable plastic bowl I bring from the office to the cafe. As you say, making the switch is surprising easy, and also satisfying.
chewz 7y ago
> Illegal shipments of Australian waste used as fuel to make tofu in Indonesia https://youtu.be/S_rFC54Bxjc https://youtu.be/S_rFC54Bxjc
lacker 7y ago
Are we anywhere near running out of landfill space? Are modern landfills bad for the environment at all? It doesn’t seem like it. I think environmentalism is misguided when it works on the principle of “everything that sounds good for the environment is equally important, we don’t need to pay attention to whether it works”. Global warming is a real danger. Running out of landfill space is not. Stop pretending like you are helping the environment when you do symbolic but unimportant things like using paper straws or reusable grocery bags. Take all the money spent on ineffective things like paper recycling and disallowing plastic bags, and put it towards the technologies that can really help, like cheaper solar power, cheaper wind power, cheaper batteries, and carbon sequestration.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
  > I think environmentalism is misguided when it works on the principle of “everything that sounds good for the environment is equally important, we don’t need to pay attention to whether it works”. It's a rather good thing, then, that just about nobody advocates or implements that strategy. Your examples happen to be of small effect (but also rather low cost) ideas that are just being amplified by detractors because they play well among a certain segment of the population.
- jraph 7y ago
  > Take all the money spent on ineffective things like paper recycling and disallowing plastic bags, and put it towards the technologies that can really help, like cheaper solar power, cheaper wind power, cheaper batteries, and carbon sequestration. Isn't this a false dichotomy?
ap3 7y ago
I worked at a company that introduced recycling program and we had three bins: trash, recyclables and food We were all trying to abide by the program and go “green”. One day we stuck around late and noticed the cleaning guy come in take the three bins and empty the onto the same trash container We asked him and he said they only had one type of trash containers we downstairs so everything went into the same one
- rasz 7y ago
  This is how Warsaw, capital of Poland, EU member works. Recycling bins are mandatory per EU policy, garbage trucks load all three bins into the same bed and dump it into the same landfill, city pays EU fine. Everyone is happy because - people get to pretend they care - collecting is cheaper than using 3x the number of vehicles - its cheaper than actually doing something sensible with segregated garbage.
FrozenVoid 7y ago
You can convert it to oil instead of burning(which releases dioxins/heavy metals and other chemicals). http://www.plastic2oil.com http://www.plastic2oil.com https://www.instructables.com/id/Waste-Plastic-to-Fuel/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Waste-Plastic-to-Fuel/ https://permaculturenews.org/2014/03/21/home-scale-conversion-plastics-oil/ https://permaculturenews.org/2014/03/21/home-scale-conversio... https://plastics.americanchemistry.com/Plastics-to-Oil/ https://plastics.americanchemistry.com/Plastics-to-Oil/ https://www.sciencealert.com/holy-crap-watch-this-guy-turn-plastic-back-into-oil https://www.sciencealert.com/holy-crap-watch-this-guy-turn-p...
kostko 7y ago
Citizens are not producing kgs of plastics a day! Companies are! Lets just start a movement to start unboxing everything in plastic after the purchase counter and before exit and leave supermarkets to deal with the plastics... then they’ll take note. I’ve seen tens of inventions covering biological clear plastic alternatives, now we just need to make the companies apply them...

96 points by SmkyMt 7y ago

dang 7y ago

Related and recent: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20549804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20549804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20433851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20433851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19889365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19889365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19399543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19399543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19346342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19346342 More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20550947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20550947

andrewstuart 7y ago

"Lie" might be a more appropriate word than "myth". The packaging/garbage manufacturing industry needs people to believe in recycling, otherwise they'll start asking "why the heck is the packaging industry spewing an infinite, never ending flow of garbage?". So far they have hidden behind the lie of recycling so people feel like it's not actually the problem it is. The only true solution is a small range of standardised returnable/washable/reusable containers - this is a huge business opportunity for whoever really nails it. Reusable/returnable containers for food, for e-commerce goods shipping, and also reusable containers just for buying stuff off the supermarket shelves. Think of the size of the market for a true solution for that. Why, for example, does Amazon not have a standard set of shipping box sizes which it not only delivers, but re-collects via the same logistics network?

icelancer 7y ago
>> Why, for example, does Amazon not have a standard set of shipping box sizes which it not only delivers, but re-collects via the same logistics network? It tried this with plastic bins. Customers just kept the bins. Enforce return by fining customers who don't return bins? What if they say they were stolen off their porch? You have a huge chain of custody problem here.
- andrewstuart 7y ago
  >> You have a huge chain of custody problem here. So things will be awesome when the problem is solved. It's usually money that solves problems. Amazon customers want environmentally friendly shipping. So they pay the extra $5 deposit, which Amazon gives back when the container is returned. Those who don't want to return the container have paid for it. Then of course other companies and industries must become greener because customers demand it. And Amazon already has a solution in place for reusable/returnable shipping containers, so it becomes an even bigger win for Amazon when it sells reusable/returnable shipping container service end to end and manages all the chain of ownership stuff and absorbs the complexity and risk. As I say, it's a HUGE problem, so a huge win for whichever company implements what I've already set out above. Just needs to happen that's all. In the future, look for the option "Add $5 for shipping box return collection" on your favorite ecommerce site. And look to Uber to expand to "UberEnvironment" - their container collection service where they pay people to collect containers and return them to cleaning/reuse centers. There are so many, many, many delivery startups out there - they'll be able to expand not only to sending stuff to homes but collecting stuff (containers) from homes.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    >> Amazon customers want environmentally friendly shipping. Citation needed. They want it without the burden of... >>> So they pay the extra $5 deposit I highly doubt a large percentage of Amazon customers want environmentally friendly shipping that they have to pay a deposit for and mind a chain of custody. As I noted, Amazon literally already tried this and it didn't work. So, yeah, it's a problem. And eventually someone will fix it. But you act like Amazon hasn't tried it, and you're ignoring all the chain of custody issues with a deposit system that requires shipping rather than a customer-returns method that worked decades years ago when people shopped locally only. People on HN are pretty out of touch with the every day person, I think. These ideas sound really good to medium-high net worth individuals, but the average consumer on Amazon is not in that group and really does not care about the environment all that much if it is going to potentially hurt their pocketbook.
    - 7y ago
doctorpangloss 7y ago
> "Lie" might be a more appropriate word than "myth" This whole line of thinking is why stories like these get great engagement on social media and never really lead to any changes in behavior. A debate over whether omission or generalization are forms of lying gives you a fractal space of debate that's easy for non-experts to opine on. So go the articles to the top of the voting-based social media algorithms. And yet nothing gets done. As a non-expert whose only dog in this race is living on this planet with everyone else, I'd urge you to stop speculating on solutions. Look at people or movements that it seems everyone agrees with, especially across political divides. It's not going to be this really arcane stuff you're talking about, like shipping containers or whatever. Take electric cars for instance. Driving is this thing where everyone agrees they want to do it but they all hate other drivers. It's a unique political situation: agreeing with people that you should drive, and simultaneously hating those people! Electric cars give people what they want in a way that despite hating each other they'll agree, and if you pay attention to what environmental solutions (particularly technology) actually gets adopted, it tends to look like this. In your example, you're basically talking about something like electric cars, which is good, but then speculating you actually know what the packaging solution would look like, which is bad. People have even speculated about electric cars for a century! But if you really thought this was what the solution is, go and do it. Go and make those standardized boxes and try to sell them to Amazon. It's not about being right or wrong even though it feels that way. That's an illusion created by social media. Elon Musk's worst moments are when he's going into crackpot conspiracies. The reason he's beloved across political divides is all about going out and doing shit. But you ain't that guy, you don't have a billion dollars to transcend feeling good on social media. So you don't need to speculate about "garbage manufacturing industry" conspiracies or why Amazon does this or that. Go work for Amazon and create new packaging for them, or tell them what you would pay for, or support people who actually go and do the thing. But don't just click upvote and feel good.
- guerrilla 7y ago
  > This whole line of thinking is why stories like these get great engagement on social media and never really lead to any changes in behavior Do you have evidence for the latter?
api 7y ago
Washing all that stuff in usual ways would use tons of water and soap and energy. It's possible that the cost of washing reusable containers would exceed the cost (in energy/resources as well as money) of making disposable plastic and paper. It's a really hard problem. A solution would have to figure out an efficient washing process as well as the form factors.
- Rotareti 7y ago
  That's like saying a household on disposables would be cheaper than one on actual dishes. I haven't done the math, but I'm almost certain it isn't.

kinow 7y ago

In New Zealand it is easy to see the effects after countries stopped accepting our rubbish. We have a few landfill, but they are slowly piling up now. And NZ has always been popular for its green landscapes. So now the gov, councils, and local businesses started prohibiting some types of plastics. But it is still at early stages. Supermarkets have banned single use plastic bags, but pretty much everthing you buy still has plastic that goes to the landfill. Recycling here is also different from latin america. In latam normally you have multiple recycling bins... one for glass, one for plastic, one for paper, etc. Here we have a single container for plastic. Some times you find multiple bins, but that's still rare. In my company, there is one huge bin for cardboard only downstairs. One for paper (but only for confidential docs to be properly destroyed), and the bins in the kitchen areas, where you are supposed to throw only milk packages. I looked around where I could dispose oil, and a restaurant owner told me to just dump in the sink. He said there is a company that goes around the CBD collecting used oil, but only from businesses that pay for that. There is a place that collects electronics waste. But the collection places and dates are sparse, and I see a lot getting dumped in the normal waste. We still have a long way to go. At least the council here reports on landfills and is doing their part trying to promote green ideas https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/building-and-consents/types-resource-consents/earthworks/Pages/landfills.aspx https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/building-and-consents/ty...

OrgNet 7y ago

2 days ago, the recycling truck in my neighborhood picked up the trash bin of my neighbor in the same truck as the recycling (the neighbor put his trash bin out too late)... I'm pretty sure it all goes in the same place.

Reedx 7y ago

The largest recycling center in California, with almost 300 locations, actually just closed last week: “With the continued reduction in State fees, the depressed pricing of recycled aluminum and PET plastic, and the rise in operating costs resulting from minimum wage increases and required health and workers compensation insurance, the Company has concluded that operation of these recycling centers and supporting operations is no longer sustainable,” https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/08/05/californias-largest-recycling-center-business-closes-shuttering-300-redemption-centers/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/08/05/californias-largest-r...

shioyama 7y ago

> The present dumping ground of choice is Malaysia. Use of the term "dumping" makes me seriously question the article's storyline. Plastic garbage is not "dumped" in Malaysia, it is sold to buyers in Malaysia. If you wanted to dump it it would be much cheaper to do so at source. Ref: https://discardstudies.com/2019/05/06/adam-minter-how-things-flow/ https://discardstudies.com/2019/05/06/adam-minter-how-things...

ceejayoz 7y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/09/indonesia-sends-rubbish-back-to-australia-and-says-its-too-contaminated-to-recycle https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/09/indonesi... > In May, the Malaysian government said it would return up to 100 tonnes of Australian waste because it was too contaminated to recycle. It was part of 450 tonnes of imported plastic waste it sent back to countries across the globe. Malaysia’s environment minister, Yeo Bee Yin, said the rubbish was infested with maggots and declared Malaysia would “fight back” and “not be the dumping ground of the world.”
- ZeroGravitas 7y ago
  Am I the only one weirded out that this story keeps coming up and that everyone seems to ignore the whole "sending people something they didn't ask for when they paid for something else" aspect? It's like someone coming to pick up your old furniture to donate to Goodwill, mixing it in with bags of dog poop and selling it to them as "mixed furniture". Of course they're going to send it back. Of course they're going to be offended that you treat them with such disrespect. But it's untrue to say "Goodwill won't take any more furniture", they just don't want the dog poop.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    I don't disagree, but the issue is that picking out "the dog poop" wrecks the cost/benefit balance of recycling vs landfilling it all.
    - 7y ago

SubiculumCode 7y ago

I am not sure how much a return to glass would cost consumers. Taxing plastic might be required, unless someone can come up with a market based solution.

spodek 7y ago

You never need to use another plastic bottle, single-use cup, fork, or bag again for the rest of your life. Try this challenge: go for a week without using those things. However far you make it, I bet you'll find it easier and rewarding than you expect. The goal doesn't have to be to fix all the world's problems by yourself overnight, just a new experience. It will probably lead to institutional and government change faster than not acting and it costs nothing anyway. Everyone I know who has tried has continued because they enjoyed the experience. If you live in Flint or some place similarly polluted and need the bottles you can still do the experiment.

stevesimmons 7y ago
In my previous workplace, all my food, drinks, coffee, water was in disposable packaging. That is 230 food boxes, 690 coffee cups, 230 porridge bowls and lids, 460 plastic wrappers, plus plastic cutlery, etc. All up 2000 items of disposable plastic per year. At my new office, it is 100% reusable. Even my lunchtime salads are put in the reusable plastic bowl I bring from the office to the cafe. As you say, making the switch is surprising easy, and also satisfying.

chewz 7y ago

> Illegal shipments of Australian waste used as fuel to make tofu in Indonesia https://youtu.be/S_rFC54Bxjc https://youtu.be/S_rFC54Bxjc

lacker 7y ago

Are we anywhere near running out of landfill space? Are modern landfills bad for the environment at all? It doesn’t seem like it. I think environmentalism is misguided when it works on the principle of “everything that sounds good for the environment is equally important, we don’t need to pay attention to whether it works”. Global warming is a real danger. Running out of landfill space is not. Stop pretending like you are helping the environment when you do symbolic but unimportant things like using paper straws or reusable grocery bags. Take all the money spent on ineffective things like paper recycling and disallowing plastic bags, and put it towards the technologies that can really help, like cheaper solar power, cheaper wind power, cheaper batteries, and carbon sequestration.

IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
> I think environmentalism is misguided when it works on the principle of “everything that sounds good for the environment is equally important, we don’t need to pay attention to whether it works”. It's a rather good thing, then, that just about nobody advocates or implements that strategy. Your examples happen to be of small effect (but also rather low cost) ideas that are just being amplified by detractors because they play well among a certain segment of the population.
jraph 7y ago
> Take all the money spent on ineffective things like paper recycling and disallowing plastic bags, and put it towards the technologies that can really help, like cheaper solar power, cheaper wind power, cheaper batteries, and carbon sequestration. Isn't this a false dichotomy?

ap3 7y ago

I worked at a company that introduced recycling program and we had three bins: trash, recyclables and food We were all trying to abide by the program and go “green”. One day we stuck around late and noticed the cleaning guy come in take the three bins and empty the onto the same trash container We asked him and he said they only had one type of trash containers we downstairs so everything went into the same one

rasz 7y ago
This is how Warsaw, capital of Poland, EU member works. Recycling bins are mandatory per EU policy, garbage trucks load all three bins into the same bed and dump it into the same landfill, city pays EU fine. Everyone is happy because - people get to pretend they care - collecting is cheaper than using 3x the number of vehicles - its cheaper than actually doing something sensible with segregated garbage.

FrozenVoid 7y ago

You can convert it to oil instead of burning(which releases dioxins/heavy metals and other chemicals). http://www.plastic2oil.com http://www.plastic2oil.com https://www.instructables.com/id/Waste-Plastic-to-Fuel/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Waste-Plastic-to-Fuel/ https://permaculturenews.org/2014/03/21/home-scale-conversion-plastics-oil/ https://permaculturenews.org/2014/03/21/home-scale-conversio... https://plastics.americanchemistry.com/Plastics-to-Oil/ https://plastics.americanchemistry.com/Plastics-to-Oil/ https://www.sciencealert.com/holy-crap-watch-this-guy-turn-plastic-back-into-oil https://www.sciencealert.com/holy-crap-watch-this-guy-turn-p...

kostko 7y ago

Citizens are not producing kgs of plastics a day! Companies are! Lets just start a movement to start unboxing everything in plastic after the purchase counter and before exit and leave supermarkets to deal with the plastics... then they’ll take note. I’ve seen tens of inventions covering biological clear plastic alternatives, now we just need to make the companies apply them...