5 ms·

One way of alleviating the boom/bust effect is some form of supply management, such as what exists for diary products in Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S

One way of alleviating the boom/bust effect is some form of supply management, such as what exists for diary products in Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_management_(Canada) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_management_(Canada) It's effectively a subsidy, but the subsidy is provided by the actual consumers of the goods (via government price fixing) rather than out of the general revenue pot. Individual farmers get grouchy that they're no allowed to have more cattle than their quota, but the reality is that those limitations protect a commons— if there were no restrictions and every farmer took on a few more cattle, there'd be oversupply, the price would crash, and they'd all be headed to Ottawa for a bailout. Yay free markets. Note that this whole system is an interesting bit of political football in Canada, because the party that you'd expect to oppose it ideologically (the Conservatives) in fact do not, because their support base includes the rural farmers who benefit from it. The farmers are also well organized and well funded in terms of their lobbying operation. There was a recent mini-scandal about their presence at the Conservative party's national convention, see: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/full-text-the-dairy-lobby-briefing-binder-found-on-the-floor-of-the-conservative-convention https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/full-text-the-dairy-lob...

khuey 7y ago
This is true in the US too. Small government Republicans love farm subsidies because farm owners vote Republican. The position of Iowa in the Presidential nominating system constrains the Democrats fairly severely too.
- scarface74 7y ago
  It’s because of the realities of the electoral college. The less populated states full of farmers have an out of proportion share of electoral votes.
  - specialist 7y ago
    khuey may be referring to the presidential primary calendar, where the conservatives in Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina have outsized influence by going first: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/us/elections/2020-presidential-election-calendar.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/us/elections/2020-p...
Scoundreller 7y ago
> It's effectively a subsidy, but the subsidy is provided by the actual consumers of the goods (via government price fixing) rather than out of the general revenue pot. This is effectively a regressive tax. A tax that disproportionately impacts those with young children. Largely a tax on parents. I don't think their lobby is that powerful. There aren't that many dairy farmers, but millions that would love cheaper dairy. I wish croissants made with butter weren't so hard to find.
- endorphone 7y ago
  Calling it a tax on parents is a serious reach. And while the US has dumping prices that are lower than Canada's (e.g. when they are faced with dumping product down the drain so instead pour it into an area for little), in many areas and times the prices are not far off the US. The lack of butter croissants has nothing to do with it, as an aside. We simply have a mediocre croissant palate in Canada, so the general market variety are horrendous.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    > The lack of butter croissants has nothing to do with it, as an aside It has everything to do with a centralized marketer that can put out any grade product it wants, and consumers can either buy it at the price they say or switch to margarine/vegoil. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/food-trends/in-search-of-higher-fat-butter/article547827/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/food-tren... Expensive inputs further encourages substitutions, especially when the expensive input wasn’t great. Individual people may not respond well to incentives, but industrial buyers sure do.
    - endorphone 7y ago
      The grade argument is debatable. Yes, if you want a bonafide, completely authentic as in France croissant it is less easily obtained (sidenote -- there are makers who do make the higher fat, lower water butter, but there is very little demand), but if a maker is choosing between a imperceptibly different Canadian standard butter and margarine (the former indistinguishable, the latter a vile abomination), and you think that minuscule difference is the reason, you are misled. Further it isn't expensive. Large quantity butters purchases, including special higher fat versions that aren't generally on grocery stores, are an insubstantial percentage of the cost of making a croissant. https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/canadian-croissant-fans-protected-from-butter-shortages-ravaging-france https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/canadian-croissant-... But again, the reason croissants are generally horrendous in Canada is because people just don't care. If people don't care you end up with the weird bready-things that are marketed as croissants. This is a bit of a personal peeve having just gotten back from Belgium/France a couple of months ago, and being spoiled by every hotel having extremely good croissants. The debate over supply management is revisited at every election, and overwhelmingly Canadians buy into the notion that supply management has benefits in certain industries. As an aside -- it's cheaper to buy milk and butter in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and virtually every other urban center in Canada than in San Francisco, NYC, LA, or any other large US center. US dairy dumps their excess on secondary markets like Detroit, and it's always the "Windsor versus Detroit" sort of comparison that we hear parroted.

khuey 7y ago

This is true in the US too. Small government Republicans love farm subsidies because farm owners vote Republican. The position of Iowa in the Presidential nominating system constrains the Democrats fairly severely too.

scarface74 7y ago
It’s because of the realities of the electoral college. The less populated states full of farmers have an out of proportion share of electoral votes.
- specialist 7y ago
  khuey may be referring to the presidential primary calendar, where the conservatives in Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina have outsized influence by going first: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/us/elections/2020-presidential-election-calendar.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/us/elections/2020-p...

Scoundreller 7y ago

> It's effectively a subsidy, but the subsidy is provided by the actual consumers of the goods (via government price fixing) rather than out of the general revenue pot. This is effectively a regressive tax. A tax that disproportionately impacts those with young children. Largely a tax on parents. I don't think their lobby is that powerful. There aren't that many dairy farmers, but millions that would love cheaper dairy. I wish croissants made with butter weren't so hard to find.

endorphone 7y ago
Calling it a tax on parents is a serious reach. And while the US has dumping prices that are lower than Canada's (e.g. when they are faced with dumping product down the drain so instead pour it into an area for little), in many areas and times the prices are not far off the US. The lack of butter croissants has nothing to do with it, as an aside. We simply have a mediocre croissant palate in Canada, so the general market variety are horrendous.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  > The lack of butter croissants has nothing to do with it, as an aside It has everything to do with a centralized marketer that can put out any grade product it wants, and consumers can either buy it at the price they say or switch to margarine/vegoil. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/food-trends/in-search-of-higher-fat-butter/article547827/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/food-tren... Expensive inputs further encourages substitutions, especially when the expensive input wasn’t great. Individual people may not respond well to incentives, but industrial buyers sure do.
  - endorphone 7y ago
    The grade argument is debatable. Yes, if you want a bonafide, completely authentic as in France croissant it is less easily obtained (sidenote -- there are makers who do make the higher fat, lower water butter, but there is very little demand), but if a maker is choosing between a imperceptibly different Canadian standard butter and margarine (the former indistinguishable, the latter a vile abomination), and you think that minuscule difference is the reason, you are misled. Further it isn't expensive. Large quantity butters purchases, including special higher fat versions that aren't generally on grocery stores, are an insubstantial percentage of the cost of making a croissant. https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/canadian-croissant-fans-protected-from-butter-shortages-ravaging-france https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/canadian-croissant-... But again, the reason croissants are generally horrendous in Canada is because people just don't care. If people don't care you end up with the weird bready-things that are marketed as croissants. This is a bit of a personal peeve having just gotten back from Belgium/France a couple of months ago, and being spoiled by every hotel having extremely good croissants. The debate over supply management is revisited at every election, and overwhelmingly Canadians buy into the notion that supply management has benefits in certain industries. As an aside -- it's cheaper to buy milk and butter in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and virtually every other urban center in Canada than in San Francisco, NYC, LA, or any other large US center. US dairy dumps their excess on secondary markets like Detroit, and it's always the "Windsor versus Detroit" sort of comparison that we hear parroted.