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This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are

This piece is quite accurate - it really makes you feel like you're in Hong Kong during the protests. References aside, as a US citizen in Hong Kong there are some things that I respect immensely and some things that really get on my nerves about HK. I greatly respect the people and the cause. It reminds me of that one poem - > Do not go gentle into that good night. > Rage, rage against the dying of the light. The people here have a heart to fight for their own identity and for their well-being. It's actually really amazing especially with the immense challenges facing them and the great risks they have as a people. At the same time, when two parties disagree in Asian culture, it rarely turns towards resolution. Most of the time it turns towards silence (separating, parting ways, or just pretending it never happened), violence (intense arguments, passive aggressive pay back, hatred and villainfication of both sides leading to all out war), or just a lot of stiffness / unwillingness to compromise, understand the other side or reach a deal. This reflection is not just about the protests, although the escalation is due to the culture being this way. It happens everywhere, the biggest pet peeve of mine is that it's a normal, accepted practice. For instance, if you don't like your boss, you don't say anything, you just hold it in and then you send in your resignation. I wish the culture would be more willing to engage in conflict resolution type conversation and learn how to do it. It takes a lot of practice on both sides to do it.

lawrenceyan 7y ago
Growing up in the suburbs of California, I never really understood just how central the concept of face was in Asian society until visiting China and seeing it for myself. Over time I’ve come to realize that many of these social concepts exists in some form or another across all cultures, likely implicit in some part to the human condition, but it still surprises me to this day just how entrenched it still is in certain areas. I’ve always been personally curious as to what the causes of these divergences in culture between different societies are. There must be some inciting reason that such a stark difference in communication exists.
- Joakal 7y ago
  Face is important because it came from a family oriented culture. If you were made to look bad, you'd feel even worse when the rest of your family finds out (Grandparents, relatives would talk negatively about this aka gossip). This morphed into businesses that build on relationships, the Chinese term for that is 'guanxi'. For China, they would 'lose face' if Hong Kong became independent (or Xinjiang or Tibet for that matter).
  - tanilama 7y ago
    Actually I don't think so. It is much more than losing face. Losing sovereignity in East Asian countries, where nationalism is hyper active, is an attack directly on national identity. The Chinese government now will cease to exist if it yields to independence demands from any of the separationist region. The nationalistic education has been ingrained into society at large, something nobody dares to question.
    - dragonsh 7y ago
      Yes I agree with you nationalism is ingrained from childhood and this makes it harder for minority who are against blind nationalism. This has been true for all the 70+ countries I lived and traveled. But I still believe in this quote: "Patriotism cannot be our final spiritual shelter; my refuge is humanity. I will not buy glass for the price of diamonds, and I will never allow patriotism to triumph over humanity as long as I live." By a Noble Laureate.
      - gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
        patriotism != nationalism
        reroute1 7y ago
        obviously he just gave a quote explaining that
        dragonsh 7y ago
        Actually this is another such explanation to justify one over the other. I am a believer that world should be built and bound by human to human connections and love, not by some utilitarian construct like nationalism. You can read the book of that noble laureate who influenced me, on this subject from Gutenberg press: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40766 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40766
- azernik 7y ago
  This has also been observed about Southern (i.e. Southeastern US) culture - it has an emphasis on "honor" and "face" that is much-reduced in other American regional cultures. These probably generally go back to historical social structures where reputation was important on a day-to-day level. (e.g. where personal relations took over some economic or legal functions that would be handled through more distant institutions in e.g. Northeastern US culture).
  - spyckie2 7y ago
    I'm inclined to believe it is driven by the economic situation and how power is consolidated. Where power and prestige creates strong economic advantages is where this kind of behavior wins out. And where innovation speed creates strong economic advantages is where you find more cooperative and negotiative cultures.
  - roboys 7y ago
    If you lose a major war, all you have is your pride. That's probably at the core of this observation.
- thinkingemote 7y ago
  "Face" is also tied into shame and handling feelings of shame. Shame is a major emotion (or idea) and one which is often internalised. Shame is the negative feeling about yourself. "The definition of shame is a discrete, basic emotion, described as a moral or social emotion that drives people to hide or deny their wrongdoings" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame Much of western street violence is about shame at it's core. One basic over simplified version is that if I ask for respect I'm asking you not to reveal my own shame. The idea that violent criminals are shameless is wrong - they have deep shame about themselves - and violence is often one reaction to this internal feeling. Of course there are different types of shame. Sometimes what we think as wrong isn't wrong and sometimes it's not our fault. Society and shame is entwined - and because of this being able to talk about and manage shame is almost impossible. I'm not sure how this relates to Asian society but I thought it could be a useful avenue into investigating face.
  - eeZah7Ux 7y ago
    The main negative driver in asian societies is shame, while the main one in "western" societies is guilt. And yes, both emotions are often at the root of street violence.
    - raxxorrax 7y ago
      What would you say is the difference? Isn't guilt just a form of shame that is consciously acknowledged?
      - bart_spoon 7y ago
        I could be splitting hairs, but to me, guilt is established by another party, and something you may or may not recognize, whereas shame is mostly sourced internally. Someone, including the government, my employer, and other people, can declare me guilty of something. I also can admit guilt, but its not required. Shame on the other hand is something that only exists if I personally feel it. I do agree with the notion that this may be somewhere close to one of the major differences between Western and some Asian societies (I'm thinking of Japan primarily, as that is what I have experience with, so this may not extrapolate to other Asian cultures). In Japan, I was shocked at the low crime rates. I could leave my bike unlocked pretty much anywhere and not worry about it being stolen. They leave vending machines on random alleyways everywhere with no fear that someone will break into them. Crime in general is just so much lower, despite opportunity potentially being much higher. Additionally, streets are so much cleaner than American cities. People don't defecate on the sidewalk. They clean up after their animals. Public transportation is clean and reliable and you aren't going to be screamed at by a homeless person. I think a lot of this comes from the fact that Japanese culture has a strong element of shame attached to people who transgress societal rules. In Western countries, the emphasis is more on guilt, which leads more to a culture of "getting away with what I can", and "its only a problem when I get caught". We litter more. We steal more. We are more violent. We tend to put less effort into our jobs. Of course there are flip sides. I think the strong sense of shame and societal responsibility in cultures like Japan's also leads to more mental health issues, higher suicide rates and societal isolation. Tougher work environments and cultures. Sometimes a stronger apprehension towards challenging the status quo. I'm not sure if one is more ideal than the other. I'm personally a big fan of the societal cohesion that seems to exist in Japanese culture, but I have friends who found it stifling and sterile.
- FabHK 7y ago
  FWIW, I've encountered several times that German or Russian directness was considered impolite or even offensive in the US, for example when you'd point out that there was a mistake or something not conforming to spec without prefacing it with "Thanks for the awesome work! This is real progress. A minor issue we could still improve might be this:", etc. So, as you point out, these conventions exist everywhere, and (like the proverbial young fish asking "what's water?"), they're hard to see when you're in the middle of them, and consequently much easier to see when you observe them in a different culture.
  - slothtrop 7y ago
    We could use a little German-ness in that case.
unityByFreedom 7y ago
> when two parties disagree in Asian culture, it rarely turns towards resolution. This is not a fair or accurate representation of any group of Asians, especially not democratically governed areas. There have been plenty of win-win resolutions. China today is much more connected with the world than it was 50 years ago, and it's better off for it. edit please explain your downvotes, thanks.
davedx 7y ago
What exactly is Asian culture?
- tombh 7y ago
  Quite. Cynically it feels more like it describes the internal European and American image of the those people east of Europe. Asia is far more diverse than either America or Europe. Sarcastically speaking, such stereotyping is typical of arrogant Westerners.
- idlewords 7y ago
  It is inscrutable!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- athrowayyyy 7y ago
  The idea that "the other culture" is some sort of inscrutable, mysterious entity that's completely alien to any kind of understanding or bridging by foreigners is a common talking point of authoritarian, nationalistic and/or warmongering rhetoric. It allows to make a number of points, such that foreign country X is the enemy, immigrants from country Y could never integrate, critics from foreign country Z should shut up because they can't possibly understand OUR culture, etc. This kind of mentality goes beyond countries or cultures, but also affects differences between generations, genders, sexuality, etc. It is far more convenient to explain away different behaviors as "It should be expected, she's X" (or the flipped "I can't help it, I'm X") than trying to work out and overcome differences on an individual level. We're all guilty of it to some extent as it helps build a sense of identity (notably among minority groups) but the normative aspect of it is very harmful.
  - unityByFreedom 7y ago
    > The idea that "the other culture" is some sort of inscrutable, mysterious entity that's completely alien to any kind of understanding or bridging by foreigners is a common talking point of authoritarian, nationalistic and/or warmongering rhetoric. Damn straight! Beijing just wants to rile up Hong Kong into defeating themselves, presumably so someplace closer to Beijing becomes a more powerful trading post. No other party has a motive to turn HK against itself like this.
rusk 7y ago
> when two parties disagree in Asian culture, it rarely turns towards resolution This sounds a lot like politics in the UK and USA to me ...
- seppin 7y ago
  No one is talking about politics, this is about two people unable to resolve a conflict.
spyckie2 7y ago
I don't want to change my original post, so I'll add to it here: When you're on the streets with the protests, it feels extremely primeval. The micro-scale interactions of the protest movement is like looking into a microscope at microorganisms, blobs of life that just kind of move around and sometimes eat others but most of the time just float there. It's a decentralized, rather polite mob. Angry, yes. Scary, sometimes. But otherwise, just a lot of yelling, a lot of "tactics" - like retreat, advance, wall off here, go here, go there, run. It feels like there's no real goal or direction of the protest except to exist, and I think the author captures that feeling very, very well. The police also have that same feeling on a micro-level, not much thought or control, just an instinctual reaction or set of rules to follow. One party existing to express concerns and vent anger. The other party existing to restrain and disperse. Of course, on the real level, the two parties have deeply rooted goals and feelings. The police want the protestors to stop protesting. The political party wants the people to be absorbed into China. And the protestors want to preserve the unique individuality of HK and to allow it to grow and thrive.
- j1vms 7y ago
  > It feels like there's no real goal or direction of the protest except to exist Reading this makes me think a very little bit of the Paris Commune [0], well in its early days perhaps. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune
  - HNcantBtrustd 7y ago
    In the last 2000 years, much of human progress came in the form of freedom. In recent times it seems there is a pushback towards less.
    - gnulinux 7y ago
      This is absolutely not true, only this decade we've been in a momentum for worldwide progress for LGBT rights, many states now have more liberal drug laws. Moreover, I cannot think of one thing that we were free to do a few decades ago and we're restricted to do now. There is an alarmist rhetoric in libertarian community (especially r/libertarian et al) that the West is keep getting more authoritarian, whereas the fact is it's always getting more and more liberal. Do you have an concrete examples maybe?
smallnamespace 7y ago
This is a silly analysis because the conflict is fundamental. China wants to integrate Hong Kong. The protestors want independence. Neither side really wants an indefinite half-hearted autonomy, although the protestors are pushing to preserve it for as long as possible. Your very reaction shows where your sympathies lie, which is very laudable, but are you willing to engage in 'conflict resolution' over your own core values, e.g. to give up some amount of democracy or independence? If not, then talk is simply window dressing, or an opportunity to spread your message. Both sides here realize there is no true basis for negotiating, hence why they don't. In fact, negotiation at all by Beijing would be a concession: it would legitimize the protests and give protestors a formal seat at the table. You may disagree with that starting point, but let's admit that negotiations themselves are not a neutral act devoid of consequence, hence why actual diplomats spend enormous amounts of time discussing the agenda to be discussed in formal settings: what gets talked about and by whom matters.
- idlewords 7y ago
  The protesters are not calling for independence. They have five specific demands, which boil down to "uphold the law as written", including the right (guaranteed in the Basic Law) to elect their government.
  - loyukfai 7y ago
    And the five demands are not treated equally among the people: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1384380751713433&id=100004245636237&ref=bookmarks https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1384380751713433... Some of the core protesters (I don't have any objective figure) consider them a take it or leave it deal though.
  - smallnamespace 7y ago
    Right, because they are smart about what sells, both to the international community and to China. But let's not kid ourselves that wants === demands
    - 7y ago
roboys 7y ago
Am I the only person that believes international crime will see a significant drop if China controls HK? I'm actually glad this glorified money laundering/financial crime haven is being shut down. The sooner China gets extradition powers, the sooner we can close the criminal enterprises operating in/through HK for the past 1-2 centuries. Running drugs/drug money through HK is something that has been going on for a very long time (thanks to the UK/US/etc), time to put an end to it. Lot of big money manipulating kids that can't see through the haze neo-colonialism.
- icebraining 7y ago
  I'm sure you'll be shocked! shocked! when it turns out the CCP has an interest in running those enterprises, rather than shutting them down.
  - roboys 7y ago
    Quite a claim to make, have extraordinary evidence that this would be the outcome?
    - icebraining 7y ago
      No, producing evidence of your future behaviour is beyond my skills.
spacehunt 7y ago
> I wish the culture would be more willing to engage in conflict resolution type conversation and learn how to do it. It's rather difficult to engage in conflict resolution when the other side refused to listen for at least the past 22 years... I do agree with you, but it takes two to tango.
- spyckie2 7y ago
  Yes it does take two to tango. When both sides come from the underlying culture hard to blame one side or the other or even suggest solutions.
xster 7y ago
This is a great point. Also thanks for being neutral on this topic, especially given how hard it is to do so on Hacker News these days on this topic. I'm typically highly critical of America but I think Asian cultures have a lot to learn from the US resolution of the civil war and general conflict resolution between parties of unequal power. One can easily reference the uneasy outcomes of Asian civil wars that didn't end in re-homogenization (such as Japan). My running theory is still that the millennia-steeped culture is rooted in geographic dispositions and historical modes of production. In derivatives of mediterranean trading cultures like minoans, pheonicians, greeks etc, local production is not self-sufficient and equality, contracts, conflict resolution is your 'means of production' and, to put in a controversial idea, what social darwinism selects for. In continental/big plains/big rivers agrarian societies like sinocentric societies or even Egypt, unity, mass labor, hierarchy is their means of production for flood control, irrigation and other agrarian projects. Questioning traditional wisdom/methodology, parents and trying to get creative with how you plant your crops is an easy way to get yourself starved and what social darwinism selects against.
- spyckie2 7y ago
  I really like this kind of thinking, it's where my brain is heading currently. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or skill in weeding through historical facts and theory/storytelling to know if the "agricultural economy informs cultural values" hypothesis is true. My theory right now is more on income being a much stronger determining factor of culture than realized. A lot of specifically "Asian", "Indian" or "Western" values are actually just a reflection of income levels more than anything else, and many cultural norms will disappear when income levels equalized (like, the Asian attitude towards luxury goods or smoking).

lawrenceyan 7y ago

Growing up in the suburbs of California, I never really understood just how central the concept of face was in Asian society until visiting China and seeing it for myself. Over time I’ve come to realize that many of these social concepts exists in some form or another across all cultures, likely implicit in some part to the human condition, but it still surprises me to this day just how entrenched it still is in certain areas. I’ve always been personally curious as to what the causes of these divergences in culture between different societies are. There must be some inciting reason that such a stark difference in communication exists.

Joakal 7y ago
Face is important because it came from a family oriented culture. If you were made to look bad, you'd feel even worse when the rest of your family finds out (Grandparents, relatives would talk negatively about this aka gossip). This morphed into businesses that build on relationships, the Chinese term for that is 'guanxi'. For China, they would 'lose face' if Hong Kong became independent (or Xinjiang or Tibet for that matter).
- tanilama 7y ago
  Actually I don't think so. It is much more than losing face. Losing sovereignity in East Asian countries, where nationalism is hyper active, is an attack directly on national identity. The Chinese government now will cease to exist if it yields to independence demands from any of the separationist region. The nationalistic education has been ingrained into society at large, something nobody dares to question.
  - dragonsh 7y ago
    Yes I agree with you nationalism is ingrained from childhood and this makes it harder for minority who are against blind nationalism. This has been true for all the 70+ countries I lived and traveled. But I still believe in this quote: "Patriotism cannot be our final spiritual shelter; my refuge is humanity. I will not buy glass for the price of diamonds, and I will never allow patriotism to triumph over humanity as long as I live." By a Noble Laureate.
    - gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
      patriotism != nationalism
      - reroute1 7y ago
        obviously he just gave a quote explaining that
      - dragonsh 7y ago
        Actually this is another such explanation to justify one over the other. I am a believer that world should be built and bound by human to human connections and love, not by some utilitarian construct like nationalism. You can read the book of that noble laureate who influenced me, on this subject from Gutenberg press: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40766 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/40766
azernik 7y ago
This has also been observed about Southern (i.e. Southeastern US) culture - it has an emphasis on "honor" and "face" that is much-reduced in other American regional cultures. These probably generally go back to historical social structures where reputation was important on a day-to-day level. (e.g. where personal relations took over some economic or legal functions that would be handled through more distant institutions in e.g. Northeastern US culture).
- spyckie2 7y ago
  I'm inclined to believe it is driven by the economic situation and how power is consolidated. Where power and prestige creates strong economic advantages is where this kind of behavior wins out. And where innovation speed creates strong economic advantages is where you find more cooperative and negotiative cultures.
- roboys 7y ago
  If you lose a major war, all you have is your pride. That's probably at the core of this observation.
thinkingemote 7y ago
"Face" is also tied into shame and handling feelings of shame. Shame is a major emotion (or idea) and one which is often internalised. Shame is the negative feeling about yourself. "The definition of shame is a discrete, basic emotion, described as a moral or social emotion that drives people to hide or deny their wrongdoings" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame Much of western street violence is about shame at it's core. One basic over simplified version is that if I ask for respect I'm asking you not to reveal my own shame. The idea that violent criminals are shameless is wrong - they have deep shame about themselves - and violence is often one reaction to this internal feeling. Of course there are different types of shame. Sometimes what we think as wrong isn't wrong and sometimes it's not our fault. Society and shame is entwined - and because of this being able to talk about and manage shame is almost impossible. I'm not sure how this relates to Asian society but I thought it could be a useful avenue into investigating face.
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  The main negative driver in asian societies is shame, while the main one in "western" societies is guilt. And yes, both emotions are often at the root of street violence.
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    What would you say is the difference? Isn't guilt just a form of shame that is consciously acknowledged?
    - bart_spoon 7y ago
      I could be splitting hairs, but to me, guilt is established by another party, and something you may or may not recognize, whereas shame is mostly sourced internally. Someone, including the government, my employer, and other people, can declare me guilty of something. I also can admit guilt, but its not required. Shame on the other hand is something that only exists if I personally feel it. I do agree with the notion that this may be somewhere close to one of the major differences between Western and some Asian societies (I'm thinking of Japan primarily, as that is what I have experience with, so this may not extrapolate to other Asian cultures). In Japan, I was shocked at the low crime rates. I could leave my bike unlocked pretty much anywhere and not worry about it being stolen. They leave vending machines on random alleyways everywhere with no fear that someone will break into them. Crime in general is just so much lower, despite opportunity potentially being much higher. Additionally, streets are so much cleaner than American cities. People don't defecate on the sidewalk. They clean up after their animals. Public transportation is clean and reliable and you aren't going to be screamed at by a homeless person. I think a lot of this comes from the fact that Japanese culture has a strong element of shame attached to people who transgress societal rules. In Western countries, the emphasis is more on guilt, which leads more to a culture of "getting away with what I can", and "its only a problem when I get caught". We litter more. We steal more. We are more violent. We tend to put less effort into our jobs. Of course there are flip sides. I think the strong sense of shame and societal responsibility in cultures like Japan's also leads to more mental health issues, higher suicide rates and societal isolation. Tougher work environments and cultures. Sometimes a stronger apprehension towards challenging the status quo. I'm not sure if one is more ideal than the other. I'm personally a big fan of the societal cohesion that seems to exist in Japanese culture, but I have friends who found it stifling and sterile.
FabHK 7y ago
FWIW, I've encountered several times that German or Russian directness was considered impolite or even offensive in the US, for example when you'd point out that there was a mistake or something not conforming to spec without prefacing it with "Thanks for the awesome work! This is real progress. A minor issue we could still improve might be this:", etc. So, as you point out, these conventions exist everywhere, and (like the proverbial young fish asking "what's water?"), they're hard to see when you're in the middle of them, and consequently much easier to see when you observe them in a different culture.
- slothtrop 7y ago
  We could use a little German-ness in that case.

unityByFreedom 7y ago

> when two parties disagree in Asian culture, it rarely turns towards resolution. This is not a fair or accurate representation of any group of Asians, especially not democratically governed areas. There have been plenty of win-win resolutions. China today is much more connected with the world than it was 50 years ago, and it's better off for it. edit please explain your downvotes, thanks.

davedx 7y ago

What exactly is Asian culture?

tombh 7y ago
Quite. Cynically it feels more like it describes the internal European and American image of the those people east of Europe. Asia is far more diverse than either America or Europe. Sarcastically speaking, such stereotyping is typical of arrogant Westerners.
idlewords 7y ago
It is inscrutable!
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
athrowayyyy 7y ago
The idea that "the other culture" is some sort of inscrutable, mysterious entity that's completely alien to any kind of understanding or bridging by foreigners is a common talking point of authoritarian, nationalistic and/or warmongering rhetoric. It allows to make a number of points, such that foreign country X is the enemy, immigrants from country Y could never integrate, critics from foreign country Z should shut up because they can't possibly understand OUR culture, etc. This kind of mentality goes beyond countries or cultures, but also affects differences between generations, genders, sexuality, etc. It is far more convenient to explain away different behaviors as "It should be expected, she's X" (or the flipped "I can't help it, I'm X") than trying to work out and overcome differences on an individual level. We're all guilty of it to some extent as it helps build a sense of identity (notably among minority groups) but the normative aspect of it is very harmful.
- unityByFreedom 7y ago
  > The idea that "the other culture" is some sort of inscrutable, mysterious entity that's completely alien to any kind of understanding or bridging by foreigners is a common talking point of authoritarian, nationalistic and/or warmongering rhetoric. Damn straight! Beijing just wants to rile up Hong Kong into defeating themselves, presumably so someplace closer to Beijing becomes a more powerful trading post. No other party has a motive to turn HK against itself like this.

rusk 7y ago

> when two parties disagree in Asian culture, it rarely turns towards resolution This sounds a lot like politics in the UK and USA to me ...

seppin 7y ago
No one is talking about politics, this is about two people unable to resolve a conflict.

spyckie2 7y ago

I don't want to change my original post, so I'll add to it here: When you're on the streets with the protests, it feels extremely primeval. The micro-scale interactions of the protest movement is like looking into a microscope at microorganisms, blobs of life that just kind of move around and sometimes eat others but most of the time just float there. It's a decentralized, rather polite mob. Angry, yes. Scary, sometimes. But otherwise, just a lot of yelling, a lot of "tactics" - like retreat, advance, wall off here, go here, go there, run. It feels like there's no real goal or direction of the protest except to exist, and I think the author captures that feeling very, very well. The police also have that same feeling on a micro-level, not much thought or control, just an instinctual reaction or set of rules to follow. One party existing to express concerns and vent anger. The other party existing to restrain and disperse. Of course, on the real level, the two parties have deeply rooted goals and feelings. The police want the protestors to stop protesting. The political party wants the people to be absorbed into China. And the protestors want to preserve the unique individuality of HK and to allow it to grow and thrive.

j1vms 7y ago
> It feels like there's no real goal or direction of the protest except to exist Reading this makes me think a very little bit of the Paris Commune [0], well in its early days perhaps. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune
- HNcantBtrustd 7y ago
  In the last 2000 years, much of human progress came in the form of freedom. In recent times it seems there is a pushback towards less.
  - gnulinux 7y ago
    This is absolutely not true, only this decade we've been in a momentum for worldwide progress for LGBT rights, many states now have more liberal drug laws. Moreover, I cannot think of one thing that we were free to do a few decades ago and we're restricted to do now. There is an alarmist rhetoric in libertarian community (especially r/libertarian et al) that the West is keep getting more authoritarian, whereas the fact is it's always getting more and more liberal. Do you have an concrete examples maybe?

smallnamespace 7y ago

This is a silly analysis because the conflict is fundamental. China wants to integrate Hong Kong. The protestors want independence. Neither side really wants an indefinite half-hearted autonomy, although the protestors are pushing to preserve it for as long as possible. Your very reaction shows where your sympathies lie, which is very laudable, but are you willing to engage in 'conflict resolution' over your own core values, e.g. to give up some amount of democracy or independence? If not, then talk is simply window dressing, or an opportunity to spread your message. Both sides here realize there is no true basis for negotiating, hence why they don't. In fact, negotiation at all by Beijing would be a concession: it would legitimize the protests and give protestors a formal seat at the table. You may disagree with that starting point, but let's admit that negotiations themselves are not a neutral act devoid of consequence, hence why actual diplomats spend enormous amounts of time discussing the agenda to be discussed in formal settings: what gets talked about and by whom matters.

idlewords 7y ago
The protesters are not calling for independence. They have five specific demands, which boil down to "uphold the law as written", including the right (guaranteed in the Basic Law) to elect their government.
- loyukfai 7y ago
  And the five demands are not treated equally among the people: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1384380751713433&id=100004245636237&ref=bookmarks https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1384380751713433... Some of the core protesters (I don't have any objective figure) consider them a take it or leave it deal though.
- smallnamespace 7y ago
  Right, because they are smart about what sells, both to the international community and to China. But let's not kid ourselves that wants === demands
  - 7y ago

roboys 7y ago

Am I the only person that believes international crime will see a significant drop if China controls HK? I'm actually glad this glorified money laundering/financial crime haven is being shut down. The sooner China gets extradition powers, the sooner we can close the criminal enterprises operating in/through HK for the past 1-2 centuries. Running drugs/drug money through HK is something that has been going on for a very long time (thanks to the UK/US/etc), time to put an end to it. Lot of big money manipulating kids that can't see through the haze neo-colonialism.

icebraining 7y ago
I'm sure you'll be shocked! shocked! when it turns out the CCP has an interest in running those enterprises, rather than shutting them down.
- roboys 7y ago
  Quite a claim to make, have extraordinary evidence that this would be the outcome?
  - icebraining 7y ago
    No, producing evidence of your future behaviour is beyond my skills.

spacehunt 7y ago

> I wish the culture would be more willing to engage in conflict resolution type conversation and learn how to do it. It's rather difficult to engage in conflict resolution when the other side refused to listen for at least the past 22 years... I do agree with you, but it takes two to tango.

spyckie2 7y ago
Yes it does take two to tango. When both sides come from the underlying culture hard to blame one side or the other or even suggest solutions.

xster 7y ago

This is a great point. Also thanks for being neutral on this topic, especially given how hard it is to do so on Hacker News these days on this topic. I'm typically highly critical of America but I think Asian cultures have a lot to learn from the US resolution of the civil war and general conflict resolution between parties of unequal power. One can easily reference the uneasy outcomes of Asian civil wars that didn't end in re-homogenization (such as Japan). My running theory is still that the millennia-steeped culture is rooted in geographic dispositions and historical modes of production. In derivatives of mediterranean trading cultures like minoans, pheonicians, greeks etc, local production is not self-sufficient and equality, contracts, conflict resolution is your 'means of production' and, to put in a controversial idea, what social darwinism selects for. In continental/big plains/big rivers agrarian societies like sinocentric societies or even Egypt, unity, mass labor, hierarchy is their means of production for flood control, irrigation and other agrarian projects. Questioning traditional wisdom/methodology, parents and trying to get creative with how you plant your crops is an easy way to get yourself starved and what social darwinism selects against.

spyckie2 7y ago
I really like this kind of thinking, it's where my brain is heading currently. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or skill in weeding through historical facts and theory/storytelling to know if the "agricultural economy informs cultural values" hypothesis is true. My theory right now is more on income being a much stronger determining factor of culture than realized. A lot of specifically "Asian", "Indian" or "Western" values are actually just a reflection of income levels more than anything else, and many cultural norms will disappear when income levels equalized (like, the Asian attitude towards luxury goods or smoking).