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Sometimes I do wonder... how many people I see with regular jobs feel like they are using 10% of their abilities at those jobs? At this very moment I am making

by blunte 7y ago

Sometimes I do wonder... how many people I see with regular jobs feel like they are using 10% of their abilities at those jobs? At this very moment I am making an effort to re-enter the corporate world... studying Python or Ruby or Elixir any of the other 5 languages I have used in the last 10 years to convince a company that I can do their work. But inside, I know I'm doing it 99% for the money. It's only because I didn't run the gauntlet in the past and strike out on my dreams with 150% effort (I tried once, at probably 90% effort. I failed.) I had a friend and consulting boss who once told me, "I don't care what work I do; it's just a day job, and it's money." And as with people who can happily do hookup after hookup on Tinder, I sometimes wish I were like them. But when you really care about shit, it ties you up. And when the stuff you care about is just one or two cogs in a big machine that isn't really worth supporting, you die slowly for a wage. My advice to young people (those of you who are in your first 5 years of employment) is to realize now that unless you want to become a business owner or want to do 12+ years of good effort in one of the big 5 (4?) consulting firms, you should just never grow your personal cost of living and instead focus on doing stuff you love - money be damned. You may just find yourself in the enviable position where doing the thing you loved resulted in a windfall (Google bought you), or at least funds you 5+k/mo while you travel the many other awesome parts of the world which cost way less than the US and western Europe.

diminoten 7y ago
I dunno, wanderlust doesn't afflict everyone, and having a stable routine matters to some folks.
- blunte 7y ago
  I would argue that those people have not yet wandered, and don't know what is possible in life. I have not studied this scientifically, but my experience is that the more places a traveler has been, the greater their desire to explore.
  - galangalalgol 7y ago
    There seems to be an asymptote. At some point novelty in places, food, people, experiences in general becomes increasingly rare. Everwhere and everyone seems just like that other place or person. Novelty as a drug has downregulation problem. And also, not everyone is wired to be novelty seeking as hard as that is for us to imagine. They even found one of the genes for it.
    - blunte 7y ago
      What you describe depends greatly on the level of interaction and relationship building that the traveler does with the people they meet in their travels. Obviously at one end of the spectrum there are travelers who remain insulated from locals while traveling, and at the other end of the spectrum there are those who integrate and even become connected romantically or otherwise with locals. I would venture to guess that some people who travel thrive on the connections and relations they make along the way. Chances are I've only met those types of travelers, because the opposite type was busy in the malls? Like anything else, if you've done a LOT of one thing (say you've traveled 100+ countries, tasted everything, learned 2-3 extra languages), then maybe you get bored with travel for the sake of travel. Even still, that cannot be as mundane as spending the same period of time at one job in the corporate world. I'm not a 100+ country taveler; I'm a 10+. And for me, meeting nice people and experiencing new foods is my lure. But once I get someplace, exploring the architecture, sampling the music and local culture, and meeting other travelers to share stories are the attractions. Likely 10 years from now I'll care a lot more about stuff that involves less travel. So to your point, yes there is probably an asymptote. I bet it's far beyond what most people have experienced. And without being too peace-hippy-ish, I would argue that the more people get out and meet others from distant lands, the less conflict we would have globally. It's much harder to say the Chinese are evil Communist thieves when you've met a number of really great, kind, thoughtful Chinese people. (I just use this as an example.)
      - username90 7y ago
        People don't like traveling that much, people just like fantasizing about it. So the more realistic expectations you have the less you will care about travels. It can be hard to separate these two at first, especially with all the social pressure that we should like traveling, but ultimately it is mostly just a chore. > The anticipation of travel was a more powerful driver of happiness than anything participants experienced overseas or conjured up in post-trip nostalgia. https://www.peregrineadventures.com/blog/18/03/2016/science-anticipation-travel-happiness/ https://www.peregrineadventures.com/blog/18/03/2016/science-...
- esotericn 7y ago
  It's not necessarily about travel, though. I actually enjoy working, but there's something deeply unsatisfying about the 9-5 5 days a week grind. It's just so... inflexible. It consumes you; particularly if you specifically have to live somewhere for it (e.g. SF, London) and so you're tied to living there for good or bad.
  - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
    It really sucks. I used to work maybe 11-6 5 days a week, so 35 hours a week. I’ve got a new job now. I work 4 days a week about 5 hours a day. I show up around 1pm and finish up around 6. There’s zero time pressure on the project and we’re probably going to open source what we’re doing. Having three day weekends every week is a game changer. I’m hiking, seeing friends, working on projects, doing some major cleaning... Seriously, the “full time” schedule sucks. I was extremely lucky to be able to get out but if you’re wondering... yes it makes a huge difference. It’s worth every minute saved.
    - Aeolun 7y ago
      I think this is obvious. If you can get the same salary in 20 hours that you previously made in 35, no sane person will opt for the 35 (I hope).
      - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
        Well I’m not getting the same salary. I intentionally negotiate for hourly so I can come and go as I please without feeling like I owe anyone anything. But I did negotiate an hourly increase so I’m still paying all my bills and saving.
      - kgwgk 7y ago
        Most people opts for keeping doing 35 hours (or many more) for twice the salary they previously made in 35.
  - toomanybeersies 7y ago
    One thing I do like about the 9-5 grind is the consistency. I know when I'm working, and I know when I'm not. Yes, it's inflexible, but it's also predictable. I don't need to work at night, or on the weekend, I don't miss important events in my loved ones' lives because I'm away on a work trip. I would like more flexibility in my ability to take time off (it was a really nice day yesterday and I wanted to go to the forest), but I enjoy the security and stability I get. Running a business, or contracting, or any kind of hustle isn't really how I want to live my life. I've got enough stress and other shit going on in my life, having 40 hours a week where I can switch all that off is actually quite nice.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
> it's just a day job, and it's money. I've heard many people claim this, and yet, I have some doubts on whether that is REALLY what's going on in their mind. I won't call them liars; perhaps they don't even realize that something deep inside is not going the way it should.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  I think this is a protection mechanism. The absurdities of the corporate world are a lot easier to deal with if you consider filling out request forms for a day just ‘a day job’. And you absolutely need that, because the reality is soul crushing.
  - chillwaves 7y ago
    A day job? More like a lifetime.
quickthrower2 7y ago
When you are surrounded by people who want to be consumers it's hard for that not to rub off on yourself. I think the trick is to find some like minded people and run away to another country (choose carefully) and live cheaply and without the pressure to buy real estate, cars, gadgets, diamond rings and whatnot.
- blunte 7y ago
  That's very true. But I think the reason people want so much to be consumers is because they are trying to fill an emotional gap/need. Finding a pursuit that helps others leads to a greater sense of satisfaction than the purchase of a new thing. Now good food - good dining - is something I haven't yet reached a satisfaction saturation of ;)
  - sak5sk 7y ago
    Ironically, that emotional gap / need is probably a symptom of the societal conditions that created the need to constantly consume. It's a hard to break cycle because as the other commenter pointed out, people will make up silly excuses for why they "love working". I would argue that in most cases the people that love working actually love how they are spending their time and not necessarily the outcome of that work. Maybe your work involves interacting with other brilliant, like-minded and positive people. Maybe your work allows you to support your family. Maybe your work makes time passing not as boring. All of those things can be addressed with activities that do not involve work.
    - crispinb 7y ago
      > Ironically, that emotional gap / need is probably a symptom of the societal conditions that created the need to constantly consume. Nothing ironic about it - it's the plan, it's how capitalism has always been intended to work. It creates disvalues in order that the working classes must consume their way to a modicum of satisfaction. Ivan Illich was good on this, or read some of the early 20th century marketing literature. A simple, undemanding, cooperative way of life in a healthy ecosystem is the capitalist's worst nightmare.
toomanybeersies 7y ago
I like working. It doesn't need to be on a project of passion either, I enjoy digging holes as a labourer just as much as I enjoy working on an interesting engineering problem. As long as it's useful work, I'm reasonably happy. The worst I've ever felt in a job is working on doomed or failed projects, where none of your work ever comes to light. It's a waste of time and a waste of my life. I wouldn't say that I live to work, and I definitely need my breaks, but I haven't been without a job for more than 2 months since I was 15. If I made a windfall, I couldn't quit my job and travel the world for a decade, I'd go crazy. On the other hand, I have some friends who simply don't like working. They can't hold down a job for more than 6 months, and just bounce around doing whatever odd jobs they find.
- blunte 7y ago
  Indeed, I like working when it serves some purpose. I don't mind some idle periods (recovery, thinking, travel and experiencing). The challenge comes when we put our energy into work in places where our output is squandered. For a great example, imagine the game developers who built entire AAA games, only to see their games canceled just before release. Yes there may be many reasons for the cancellation, but the feeling of wasted time and creativity is real. Manual labor is practical, and it can be useful and even meditative. Unfortunately, it usually doesn't pay enough to live in most modern areas of the world. I don't know the age of your friends, but I would posit that they bounce around because they have a strong sense of "this is not right" when they get into a job. I have had more satisfaction from some of my days waiting tables (providing a really good dining experience!) when I was young, and I have had some soul-crushing days sitting in futile meetings about projects that were doomed from the start at big companies. If you asked me during those meetings, I would have rather been a waiter making $3/hr + tips. At least then I would be making people happy.
spyckie2 7y ago
From the point of view of the individual, do what you love. From the point of view of the working world, do what people pay for. From the point of view of simple optimization with no bias, find the ideal intersection of both. From the point of view of taking it easy in life, find the highest value, lowest energy activity. From the point of view of working on impossible problems that you find fulfillment, put yourself in situations that are constantly above your capacity and fight for every step of the way. Or, just do what you think is best according to what you know, no need for "absolute best" ways to approach life. But while doing that, remember to be happy with what you have at present.
csomar 7y ago
>And as with people who can happily do hookup after hookup on Tinder, I sometimes wish I were like them. That's an illusion. I used to think so. I was one of them and I burnt out. I knew many of them and most of them did burn out. Maybe there are a few that don't burn out. But going hook up through hook up is just textbook for: I'll pretend there is nothing wrong here and I'll just keep "happily" going. At some point you'll hit the wall. And the longer you keep at it, the harder is the downfall.

by blunte 7y ago

diminoten 7y ago

I dunno, wanderlust doesn't afflict everyone, and having a stable routine matters to some folks.

blunte 7y ago
I would argue that those people have not yet wandered, and don't know what is possible in life. I have not studied this scientifically, but my experience is that the more places a traveler has been, the greater their desire to explore.
- galangalalgol 7y ago
  There seems to be an asymptote. At some point novelty in places, food, people, experiences in general becomes increasingly rare. Everwhere and everyone seems just like that other place or person. Novelty as a drug has downregulation problem. And also, not everyone is wired to be novelty seeking as hard as that is for us to imagine. They even found one of the genes for it.
  - blunte 7y ago
    What you describe depends greatly on the level of interaction and relationship building that the traveler does with the people they meet in their travels. Obviously at one end of the spectrum there are travelers who remain insulated from locals while traveling, and at the other end of the spectrum there are those who integrate and even become connected romantically or otherwise with locals. I would venture to guess that some people who travel thrive on the connections and relations they make along the way. Chances are I've only met those types of travelers, because the opposite type was busy in the malls? Like anything else, if you've done a LOT of one thing (say you've traveled 100+ countries, tasted everything, learned 2-3 extra languages), then maybe you get bored with travel for the sake of travel. Even still, that cannot be as mundane as spending the same period of time at one job in the corporate world. I'm not a 100+ country taveler; I'm a 10+. And for me, meeting nice people and experiencing new foods is my lure. But once I get someplace, exploring the architecture, sampling the music and local culture, and meeting other travelers to share stories are the attractions. Likely 10 years from now I'll care a lot more about stuff that involves less travel. So to your point, yes there is probably an asymptote. I bet it's far beyond what most people have experienced. And without being too peace-hippy-ish, I would argue that the more people get out and meet others from distant lands, the less conflict we would have globally. It's much harder to say the Chinese are evil Communist thieves when you've met a number of really great, kind, thoughtful Chinese people. (I just use this as an example.)
    - username90 7y ago
      People don't like traveling that much, people just like fantasizing about it. So the more realistic expectations you have the less you will care about travels. It can be hard to separate these two at first, especially with all the social pressure that we should like traveling, but ultimately it is mostly just a chore. > The anticipation of travel was a more powerful driver of happiness than anything participants experienced overseas or conjured up in post-trip nostalgia. https://www.peregrineadventures.com/blog/18/03/2016/science-anticipation-travel-happiness/ https://www.peregrineadventures.com/blog/18/03/2016/science-...
esotericn 7y ago
It's not necessarily about travel, though. I actually enjoy working, but there's something deeply unsatisfying about the 9-5 5 days a week grind. It's just so... inflexible. It consumes you; particularly if you specifically have to live somewhere for it (e.g. SF, London) and so you're tied to living there for good or bad.
- TaylorAlexander 7y ago
  It really sucks. I used to work maybe 11-6 5 days a week, so 35 hours a week. I’ve got a new job now. I work 4 days a week about 5 hours a day. I show up around 1pm and finish up around 6. There’s zero time pressure on the project and we’re probably going to open source what we’re doing. Having three day weekends every week is a game changer. I’m hiking, seeing friends, working on projects, doing some major cleaning... Seriously, the “full time” schedule sucks. I was extremely lucky to be able to get out but if you’re wondering... yes it makes a huge difference. It’s worth every minute saved.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    I think this is obvious. If you can get the same salary in 20 hours that you previously made in 35, no sane person will opt for the 35 (I hope).
    - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
      Well I’m not getting the same salary. I intentionally negotiate for hourly so I can come and go as I please without feeling like I owe anyone anything. But I did negotiate an hourly increase so I’m still paying all my bills and saving.
    - kgwgk 7y ago
      Most people opts for keeping doing 35 hours (or many more) for twice the salary they previously made in 35.
- toomanybeersies 7y ago
  One thing I do like about the 9-5 grind is the consistency. I know when I'm working, and I know when I'm not. Yes, it's inflexible, but it's also predictable. I don't need to work at night, or on the weekend, I don't miss important events in my loved ones' lives because I'm away on a work trip. I would like more flexibility in my ability to take time off (it was a really nice day yesterday and I wanted to go to the forest), but I enjoy the security and stability I get. Running a business, or contracting, or any kind of hustle isn't really how I want to live my life. I've got enough stress and other shit going on in my life, having 40 hours a week where I can switch all that off is actually quite nice.

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

> it's just a day job, and it's money. I've heard many people claim this, and yet, I have some doubts on whether that is REALLY what's going on in their mind. I won't call them liars; perhaps they don't even realize that something deep inside is not going the way it should.

Aeolun 7y ago
I think this is a protection mechanism. The absurdities of the corporate world are a lot easier to deal with if you consider filling out request forms for a day just ‘a day job’. And you absolutely need that, because the reality is soul crushing.
- chillwaves 7y ago
  A day job? More like a lifetime.

quickthrower2 7y ago

When you are surrounded by people who want to be consumers it's hard for that not to rub off on yourself. I think the trick is to find some like minded people and run away to another country (choose carefully) and live cheaply and without the pressure to buy real estate, cars, gadgets, diamond rings and whatnot.

blunte 7y ago
That's very true. But I think the reason people want so much to be consumers is because they are trying to fill an emotional gap/need. Finding a pursuit that helps others leads to a greater sense of satisfaction than the purchase of a new thing. Now good food - good dining - is something I haven't yet reached a satisfaction saturation of ;)
- sak5sk 7y ago
  Ironically, that emotional gap / need is probably a symptom of the societal conditions that created the need to constantly consume. It's a hard to break cycle because as the other commenter pointed out, people will make up silly excuses for why they "love working". I would argue that in most cases the people that love working actually love how they are spending their time and not necessarily the outcome of that work. Maybe your work involves interacting with other brilliant, like-minded and positive people. Maybe your work allows you to support your family. Maybe your work makes time passing not as boring. All of those things can be addressed with activities that do not involve work.
  - crispinb 7y ago
    > Ironically, that emotional gap / need is probably a symptom of the societal conditions that created the need to constantly consume. Nothing ironic about it - it's the plan, it's how capitalism has always been intended to work. It creates disvalues in order that the working classes must consume their way to a modicum of satisfaction. Ivan Illich was good on this, or read some of the early 20th century marketing literature. A simple, undemanding, cooperative way of life in a healthy ecosystem is the capitalist's worst nightmare.

toomanybeersies 7y ago

I like working. It doesn't need to be on a project of passion either, I enjoy digging holes as a labourer just as much as I enjoy working on an interesting engineering problem. As long as it's useful work, I'm reasonably happy. The worst I've ever felt in a job is working on doomed or failed projects, where none of your work ever comes to light. It's a waste of time and a waste of my life. I wouldn't say that I live to work, and I definitely need my breaks, but I haven't been without a job for more than 2 months since I was 15. If I made a windfall, I couldn't quit my job and travel the world for a decade, I'd go crazy. On the other hand, I have some friends who simply don't like working. They can't hold down a job for more than 6 months, and just bounce around doing whatever odd jobs they find.

blunte 7y ago
Indeed, I like working when it serves some purpose. I don't mind some idle periods (recovery, thinking, travel and experiencing). The challenge comes when we put our energy into work in places where our output is squandered. For a great example, imagine the game developers who built entire AAA games, only to see their games canceled just before release. Yes there may be many reasons for the cancellation, but the feeling of wasted time and creativity is real. Manual labor is practical, and it can be useful and even meditative. Unfortunately, it usually doesn't pay enough to live in most modern areas of the world. I don't know the age of your friends, but I would posit that they bounce around because they have a strong sense of "this is not right" when they get into a job. I have had more satisfaction from some of my days waiting tables (providing a really good dining experience!) when I was young, and I have had some soul-crushing days sitting in futile meetings about projects that were doomed from the start at big companies. If you asked me during those meetings, I would have rather been a waiter making $3/hr + tips. At least then I would be making people happy.

spyckie2 7y ago

From the point of view of the individual, do what you love. From the point of view of the working world, do what people pay for. From the point of view of simple optimization with no bias, find the ideal intersection of both. From the point of view of taking it easy in life, find the highest value, lowest energy activity. From the point of view of working on impossible problems that you find fulfillment, put yourself in situations that are constantly above your capacity and fight for every step of the way. Or, just do what you think is best according to what you know, no need for "absolute best" ways to approach life. But while doing that, remember to be happy with what you have at present.

csomar 7y ago

>And as with people who can happily do hookup after hookup on Tinder, I sometimes wish I were like them. That's an illusion. I used to think so. I was one of them and I burnt out. I knew many of them and most of them did burn out. Maybe there are a few that don't burn out. But going hook up through hook up is just textbook for: I'll pretend there is nothing wrong here and I'll just keep "happily" going. At some point you'll hit the wall. And the longer you keep at it, the harder is the downfall.