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what is it about collective action that triggers contempt so quickly and automatically for those attempting to organize? many comments in this thread show conte

what is it about collective action that triggers contempt so quickly and automatically for those attempting to organize? many comments in this thread show contempt for the organizers in a way that is readily visible.

pgeorgi 7y ago
> what is it about collective action that triggers contempt so quickly and automatically for those attempting to organize? One part "unions are evil mafia fronts", one part "if you organize you're no 10x $job_description, because otherwise you'd be interested in getting your 10x salary", one part "socialism", one part envy (that people actually try something to improve their situation).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Mirioron 7y ago
Because the resuls of collective action isn't always fair for society. Many countries have an HDD/CD/DVD tax, because of (basically) collective action by artists. I don't see this as being fair. Why do I have to pay more when buying a HDD so that artists I'm never ever going to listen to can get more money? I understand that collective action is often beneficial, but these bad examples are enough to make me annoyed at it.
- aaomidi 7y ago
  Then unionize against this tax with other fellow HDD buyers? The difference between you and the artists are that they organized. You came on HN to complain.
- dbspin 7y ago
  This is a weak argument. Copyright collection agencies don't represent artists. Occasionally they have a few extremely high earning media personalities (notably Metalica back in the Napster days), but these kind of organisations don't represent musicians. Organisations of movie producers / TV producers like the MPAA have even less of a claim to any kind of artist representation. They're large media conglomerates, not artists unions.
Shivetya 7y ago
Old days people ascribe many businesses imploding because of union intransigence, some of which was true. These days those in the know of the fleecing of the taxpayer by government employee unions at state, county, and city, levels. The very same groups betting on a Federal Bailout to their bloated and grandiose pension plans. Using Illinois as an example [1] but understand that Chicago is in bad shape with the inability to pay their required money by 2021 and many other towns and even states have similar issues. the real one percent... earned all on the backs of mom and pa and betting they can keep up the 100k per year gravy trains [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2018/10/26/illinois-100000-club-94000-six-figure-public-employees-and-retirees-cost-taxpayers-12b/#50872e24481a https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2018/10/26/ill...
- frgtpsswrdlame 7y ago
  Your 'real one percent' are people earning 100k? What an interesting viewpoint.
SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
Contempt isn't fair, but neither is calling this effort "collective action". The impetus for Youtube to care isn't that the organizers represent lots of people producing lots of value for Google. It's that they run an unrelated metalworkers union, so they have "deep pockets and army of lawyers", and they'll use those resources to hurt Youtube if their demands aren't met.
munificent 7y ago
Hacker News in particular has a very strong libertarian streak where many people here believe all problems can be solved by a sufficiently motivated individual without any support or coordination with other humans.
- buboard 7y ago
  That's not correct. As a libertarian i support unions (as long as they re not coercive of course). Collective bargaining is a fair and square free market mechanism. Instead it's Corporate lobbying of the government and regulatory capture that is unfair.
ryanmercer 7y ago
>many comments in this thread show contempt for the organizers Go watch videos Jörg and channels like Taofledermaus made a year and a half ago that started this whole thing. Jörg was making videos on how to make extremely powerful crossbows that could defeat riot shields, stab-resistant armor etc and then got outraged when he got a strike and had some videos demonetized. Same with Taofledermaus, a channel that makes improvized ammunition (firing nails, ball bearings, coins, etc out of shotguns towards dolls they refer to as Taylor Swift and other random objects). Taofledermaus flat out claimed YouTube was deleting views and likes and even uploaded a video trying to show 'proof' of the 'conspiracy'. Those two channels, two of the first people fighting this fight, were demonetized because they were making dangerous improvised projectiles that advertisers didn't want to be a part of and then tried to claim it was a conspiracy and YouTube was trying to punish them. Now these guys are getting a few bigger names on board after a year and a half of trying and making a big fuss about it.
eikenberry 7y ago
Personally I think a lot of it is just because of their choice of the term 'union' for it. It has significant negative connotations at least in the US and they would do well to use different terminology (eg. guild or like).

pgeorgi 7y ago

> what is it about collective action that triggers contempt so quickly and automatically for those attempting to organize? One part "unions are evil mafia fronts", one part "if you organize you're no 10x $job_description, because otherwise you'd be interested in getting your 10x salary", one part "socialism", one part envy (that people actually try something to improve their situation).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Mirioron 7y ago

Because the resuls of collective action isn't always fair for society. Many countries have an HDD/CD/DVD tax, because of (basically) collective action by artists. I don't see this as being fair. Why do I have to pay more when buying a HDD so that artists I'm never ever going to listen to can get more money? I understand that collective action is often beneficial, but these bad examples are enough to make me annoyed at it.

aaomidi 7y ago
Then unionize against this tax with other fellow HDD buyers? The difference between you and the artists are that they organized. You came on HN to complain.
dbspin 7y ago
This is a weak argument. Copyright collection agencies don't represent artists. Occasionally they have a few extremely high earning media personalities (notably Metalica back in the Napster days), but these kind of organisations don't represent musicians. Organisations of movie producers / TV producers like the MPAA have even less of a claim to any kind of artist representation. They're large media conglomerates, not artists unions.

Shivetya 7y ago

Old days people ascribe many businesses imploding because of union intransigence, some of which was true. These days those in the know of the fleecing of the taxpayer by government employee unions at state, county, and city, levels. The very same groups betting on a Federal Bailout to their bloated and grandiose pension plans. Using Illinois as an example [1] but understand that Chicago is in bad shape with the inability to pay their required money by 2021 and many other towns and even states have similar issues. the real one percent... earned all on the backs of mom and pa and betting they can keep up the 100k per year gravy trains [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2018/10/26/illinois-100000-club-94000-six-figure-public-employees-and-retirees-cost-taxpayers-12b/#50872e24481a https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2018/10/26/ill...

frgtpsswrdlame 7y ago
Your 'real one percent' are people earning 100k? What an interesting viewpoint.

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

Contempt isn't fair, but neither is calling this effort "collective action". The impetus for Youtube to care isn't that the organizers represent lots of people producing lots of value for Google. It's that they run an unrelated metalworkers union, so they have "deep pockets and army of lawyers", and they'll use those resources to hurt Youtube if their demands aren't met.

munificent 7y ago

Hacker News in particular has a very strong libertarian streak where many people here believe all problems can be solved by a sufficiently motivated individual without any support or coordination with other humans.

buboard 7y ago
That's not correct. As a libertarian i support unions (as long as they re not coercive of course). Collective bargaining is a fair and square free market mechanism. Instead it's Corporate lobbying of the government and regulatory capture that is unfair.

ryanmercer 7y ago

>many comments in this thread show contempt for the organizers Go watch videos Jörg and channels like Taofledermaus made a year and a half ago that started this whole thing. Jörg was making videos on how to make extremely powerful crossbows that could defeat riot shields, stab-resistant armor etc and then got outraged when he got a strike and had some videos demonetized. Same with Taofledermaus, a channel that makes improvized ammunition (firing nails, ball bearings, coins, etc out of shotguns towards dolls they refer to as Taylor Swift and other random objects). Taofledermaus flat out claimed YouTube was deleting views and likes and even uploaded a video trying to show 'proof' of the 'conspiracy'. Those two channels, two of the first people fighting this fight, were demonetized because they were making dangerous improvised projectiles that advertisers didn't want to be a part of and then tried to claim it was a conspiracy and YouTube was trying to punish them. Now these guys are getting a few bigger names on board after a year and a half of trying and making a big fuss about it.

eikenberry 7y ago

Personally I think a lot of it is just because of their choice of the term 'union' for it. It has significant negative connotations at least in the US and they would do well to use different terminology (eg. guild or like).