10 ms·

Watch a Drone Take Over a Nearby Smart TV

65 points by Sodman 7y ago

drmpeg 7y ago
Cool, he's using some of my code. https://github.com/drmpeg/dtv-utils/blob/master/dvbt-blade.py https://github.com/drmpeg/dtv-utils/blob/master/dvbt-blade.p...
- NetOpWibby 7y ago
  Nice
- chatmasta 7y ago
  Awesome. Have you ever seen the movie The Recruit with Colin Farrell? There is a great scene where his character remotely "hacks" a TV at a job fair.
StavrosK 7y ago
TVs seem like the last thing that needs to be smart. Why can't I buy just the panel that shows the image and then connect whatever Android TV box I want so I can display the video? Then I can make sure that's patched/upgraded/whatever without having to throw away the actually-expensive panel every time. I guess that doesn't make people keep buying TVs...
- the_snooze 7y ago
  I consider a lot of "smart" devices and IoT artifacts as pollution, as far as security and reliability are concerned. Yes, let's take long-lived hardware and embed short-lived networked software in it, and do so in an environment where there are no economic or regulatory incentives to keep them patched over the expected life of the hardware. Thanks for the innovation, tech industry.
  - esotericn 7y ago
    It's pollution in general. The marketing shit getting people to buy 4K TVs when a 20 year old person struggles to see the difference from the other end of the room is literally producing unnecessary technology when the old stuff was just fine. Add on artificial software breakage and it becomes even more extreme.
    - asark 7y ago
      HDR and larger color gamut's nice. Deeper blacks are nice. Agree 4k's more useful for monitors than TVs, where it's bottom of the list of important modern upgrades to ordinary hi-def TV, IMO, unless you're rocking a legit home theater, as in projector and huge room and all. Semi-properly-set-up surround's way more important than 4k, though also expensive and very inconvenient in most people's TV spaces.
      - esotericn 7y ago
        Yes, yes, for videophiles it matters. The vast majority of people buy the shit because it's pushed on them. My grandmother doesn't bloody need 4K.
        asark 7y ago
        And they're pushing 8k now! I don't know who that's even for. The "actually benefits from 4K" slice of the market's already pretty damn small.
    - 14 7y ago
      To a point I agree. I have a 1080 and my friend picked up just a 2k screen. His it’s like getting an eye massage while watching tv the picture is just so crisp. I do dislike smart TVs however. Very thankful my dumb Samsung has lasted about 10 years and still going strong. Are there any dumb TVs left to buy?
      - esotericn 7y ago
        I have a 4K Samsung Smart TV that I use as a monitor. It just doesn't get on the network. Has never been updated but it's airgapped so who cares. Of course if it gets on some open WiFi or has a sim card in it I'm knackered. Doh. Should probably crack it open and remove the antenna.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  You could just buy a monitor. Not sure if that would meet your requirements? But it sounds like it would. Just might be a bit more pricey depending on features.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    It's not the same, (as far as I know) they don't make monitors that have the specs of TVs at the same price point.
- delfinom 7y ago
  TV business has gotten so competitive the margins are incredibly thin. Manufacturers want larger margins for their shareholders. Manufacturers see the data whoring, privacy violating business. Manufacturers put in "smart" oses into TVs so they can begin recording what you are watching, saying (they have mics and you agree to the TOS they cna record your living room!) or even doing so they can whore out for more profit than they made on you buying the tv.
- FakeComments 7y ago
  They still make dumb panels, eg. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW4G71Y/ https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW4G71Y/ I did precisely what you suggest: buy a TV and hook a streaming box to it.
  - dwyerm 7y ago
    Same. I'm running an NEC E-series. The 'smart' features it has are an honest-to-god serial port for plugging it into automation. It's been a decent display to me. The only thing I would warn consumers about them is that you generally can't go see them in a showroom, so you've got to take some chances.
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  Smart TV's have very little marginal cost to the manufacturer: A modern TV needs a beefy CPU anyways. There's nothing stopping you from treating a smart TV like a dumb TV. Just don't configure the network.
  - landcoctos 7y ago
    > Just don't configure the network. I've read, but never confirmed that some smart TVs will queue data and then attempt to connect to unsecured networks to upload to the mothership.
    - toxik 7y ago
      Rip out the wifi antenna! Or put it inside some Faraday cage.
      - excalibur 7y ago
        > Or put it inside some Faraday cage. ...your TV? Are you going to hang out inside the cage with it? Or maybe watch it through the screen door? There's a use case for 4K, it has enough pixels so that even looking through the Faraday cage you still get 1080p.
        hanniabu 7y ago
        The antenna, not the whole tv
    - mayniac 7y ago
      Don't take your tv out for a walk then.
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  washers and dryers are the last things that need to be smart. But TVs sure are up there.
- sbhn 7y ago
  You can buy a pc monitor with various input methods. There are no SMART pc monitors im aware of
- jamiethompson 7y ago
  My current "Smart TV" setup is a 10 year old 42" dumb tv with an Amazon Fire TV stick plugged into the back. I don't know what I'll do when it dies (it's dying). I wish you could just buy modern TVs that are essentially just monitors.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    Serious question, why do you need a giant TV? Why not just use a personal device like a computer, tablet, or phone to watch whatever? I imagine you'll say something about watching TV with other people, which seems fair, but in my experience people don't watch TV "together". The TV is on, maybe one person is paying attention to it, most are just on their phone, or talking to eachother. Maybe my experience is an outlier here.
    - FrightHorse 7y ago
      No one needs a giant TV, but a lot of people 'like' a bigger screen. A lot of media is just better on a big screen. It's the whole reason a great many people enjoy or even prefer watching movies on a theater screen. I don't think there's much more a reason that, nor do folk need more reason than that.
    - photojosh 7y ago
      I'm staring at a screen 50cm away for 8 hours a day already... it's nice to give my eyes a break and stare at one 3m away for my remaining awake time. ;)
    - jamiethompson 7y ago
      The main reason is I have kids. In the past, I mainly just used a tablet to watch video.
  - jayd16 7y ago
    Buy film studio monitors. They can get ugly and expensive though. Although, considering how big TVs are these days maybe there isn't a professional equivalent.
  - 7y ago
- cryptozeus 7y ago
  So they can collect your viewing history and sell it to providers. Wasn’t the samsung tv trying to spy on users via its camera to track viewing activity ?
- kalleboo 7y ago
  > Why can't I buy just the panel that shows the image You can, they sell "just dumb panels" for commercial signage applications. They cost way more. Smart TVs selling your eyeballs and your data make them cheaper than dumb panels. And since most consumers buy on price, they also get the advantage of scale. So they're more expensive and they do less, their only market is a handful of privacy geeks who aren't going to just not connect it to the internet - a tiny market. https://www.businessinsider.com/smart-tv-data-collection-advertising-2019-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/smart-tv-data-collection-adv... > A January interview on The Verge's podcast with Vizio's chief technology officer, Bill Baxter, did a great job illuminating how this works. > "This is a cutthroat industry," Baxter said. "It's a 6% margin industry. The greater strategy is I really don't need to make money off of the TV. I need to cover my cost." > "It's not just about data collection. It's about post-purchase monetization of the TV." > "You sell some movies, you sell some TV shows, you sell some ads, you know," he said. "It's not really that different than the Verge website."
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    Oh, interesting. I guess I'll just keep never connecting the TV to wifi, then.
    - targonca 7y ago
      Good luck with that. It will simply connect to a neighbouring open WiFi and transmit your data anyway :)
      - dddddaviddddd 7y ago
        Maybe remove the wifi card or antennas?
      - StavrosK 7y ago
        Nah, thank God for the GDPR.
      - tremendo 7y ago
        What data? If the TV isn't online, then why would you enter any data on it? I guess you could always connect a Roku and then give your data to Roku, or a Chromecast since Google already has your data, or a FireTV stick, since Amazon already has your data. Well, at least Samsung/LG/Sony/Vizio/etc don't, reduce a little bit the attack surface.
- jayd16 7y ago
  Sounds great! But lets sell then together in a clean package with no setup. Seems obvious to me why they sell.
- GordonS 7y ago
  > TVs seem like the last thing that needs to be smart. Why can't I buy just the panel that shows the image and then connect whatever Android TV box I want so I can display the video? You can still buy "non-smart" TVs and do this. But I think most people want this functionality built in to the TV, for 2 reasons: 1. Aesthetics. For example, my TV is wall mounted, and I don't want a box strapped on the side of it with wires hanging out. 2. Ease of use. Most people want to plug it in and have it just work
NetOpWibby 7y ago
Watch Dogs
DoubleGlazing 7y ago
I think the biggest problem with smart TVs is that manufacturers abandon models after only a few years. You might only get updates for < 3 years and after that, well tough - your TV reached the end of its supported period. No more new functionality and crucially no more security updates. Most people will still use the TV and keep it connected to their network without realising the security risks. And the above is for mainstream TV brands, imagine how bad it is for weird off-brands and store own-brands where the original software is of unknown provenance and the chances of any updates is nill.
- kalleboo 7y ago
  EU countries have consumer protection laws that cover manufacturing defects for a reasonable period of use. Those laws need to be clarified to also cover security updates. If a TV that breaks due to bad capacitors after 3 years is covered for a refund, so should a TV that has known security holes that don't get patched. "Users don't care" you say - well the tabloids would have a field day with "GET A FREE NEW TV WITH THIS ONE SECRET TRICK" headlines getting people to return them.
- rhinoceraptor 7y ago
  I just hope they never start embedding mobile radios in TVs to circumvent people who know better than to connect their TV to their network. I would imagine they can exfiltrate their tracking info with very little network traffic over LTE.
  - DoubleGlazing 7y ago
    Back in the late 90s when digital TV was being rolled out, RTÉ in Ireland developed a technology called WiNDS. You won't find much technical information about it online because it never moved beyond the prototype phase. WiNDS provided a return path for ordering PPV events and other interactivity by embedding a GSM data modem in your set top box. It would transmit back to base using your regular TV antenna.
    - Scoundreller 7y ago
whenchamenia 7y ago
Reminder that most tvs are smart, because their price is subsidized by selling your data. The extra cost for a 'dumb tv'/monitor is payin for your privacy.
jcims 7y ago
Did he actually 'take over' the TV or just overpower the OTA broadcast? If the latter then the 'Smart' part is irrelevant (and so is the drone for that matter). A yagi with 50 watt UHF amplifier would likely do just as well from the ground. A tempest attack on a display, on the other hand, would be more interesting and the drone might actually be useful for that. Add a gimbal for a directional antenna and you'd be golden. https://github.com/martinmarinov/TempestSDR https://github.com/martinmarinov/TempestSDR
- pilsetnieks 7y ago
  > Did he actually 'take over' the TV or just overpower the OTA broadcast? If the latter then the 'Smart' part is irrelevant (and so is the drone for that matter). A yagi with 50 watt UHF amplifier would likely do just as well from the ground. He overpowered the OTA broadcast, the drone is unneccessary and it can be done with an amp and a directional antenna. How do I know it? It says so right in the article.
  - jcims 7y ago
    I didn’t make it that far. The obviously oversold attack depleted my interest.
- jowsie 7y ago
  If you watch the demo video closely it's just a poorly tracked overlay stuck into the TV frame. I'm not sure what I was supposed to get from that 'demonstration'.
ddingus 7y ago
I have a Samsung Smart Plasma TV. 1080p It is fast, 3D capable. I actually have hooked it up to my computer to do real high end CAD (NX) in 3D. Frankly, it is amazing. I probably am the only one in North America who does it. Spiffy, and I really am sad plasma displays are no longer produced. Might just score another one while I can. Nothing beats glowing phosphorus in glass man! I did update it for newer codecs to play movies on USB, but that is it. Totally unsupported now. I like to buy the Smart models on clearance. I got this one, and it is huge, for like 800 bucks. Ignoring the smart part can be a cost savings if one looks.

65 points by Sodman 7y ago

Cool, he's using some of my code. https://github.com/drmpeg/dtv-utils/blob/master/dvbt-blade.py https://github.com/drmpeg/dtv-utils/blob/master/dvbt-blade.p...

NetOpWibby 7y ago
Nice
chatmasta 7y ago
Awesome. Have you ever seen the movie The Recruit with Colin Farrell? There is a great scene where his character remotely "hacks" a TV at a job fair.

StavrosK 7y ago

TVs seem like the last thing that needs to be smart. Why can't I buy just the panel that shows the image and then connect whatever Android TV box I want so I can display the video? Then I can make sure that's patched/upgraded/whatever without having to throw away the actually-expensive panel every time. I guess that doesn't make people keep buying TVs...

the_snooze 7y ago
I consider a lot of "smart" devices and IoT artifacts as pollution, as far as security and reliability are concerned. Yes, let's take long-lived hardware and embed short-lived networked software in it, and do so in an environment where there are no economic or regulatory incentives to keep them patched over the expected life of the hardware. Thanks for the innovation, tech industry.
- esotericn 7y ago
  It's pollution in general. The marketing shit getting people to buy 4K TVs when a 20 year old person struggles to see the difference from the other end of the room is literally producing unnecessary technology when the old stuff was just fine. Add on artificial software breakage and it becomes even more extreme.
  - asark 7y ago
    HDR and larger color gamut's nice. Deeper blacks are nice. Agree 4k's more useful for monitors than TVs, where it's bottom of the list of important modern upgrades to ordinary hi-def TV, IMO, unless you're rocking a legit home theater, as in projector and huge room and all. Semi-properly-set-up surround's way more important than 4k, though also expensive and very inconvenient in most people's TV spaces.
    - esotericn 7y ago
      Yes, yes, for videophiles it matters. The vast majority of people buy the shit because it's pushed on them. My grandmother doesn't bloody need 4K.
      - asark 7y ago
        And they're pushing 8k now! I don't know who that's even for. The "actually benefits from 4K" slice of the market's already pretty damn small.
  - 14 7y ago
    To a point I agree. I have a 1080 and my friend picked up just a 2k screen. His it’s like getting an eye massage while watching tv the picture is just so crisp. I do dislike smart TVs however. Very thankful my dumb Samsung has lasted about 10 years and still going strong. Are there any dumb TVs left to buy?
    - esotericn 7y ago
      I have a 4K Samsung Smart TV that I use as a monitor. It just doesn't get on the network. Has never been updated but it's airgapped so who cares. Of course if it gets on some open WiFi or has a sim card in it I'm knackered. Doh. Should probably crack it open and remove the antenna.
bilbo0s 7y ago
You could just buy a monitor. Not sure if that would meet your requirements? But it sounds like it would. Just might be a bit more pricey depending on features.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  It's not the same, (as far as I know) they don't make monitors that have the specs of TVs at the same price point.
delfinom 7y ago
TV business has gotten so competitive the margins are incredibly thin. Manufacturers want larger margins for their shareholders. Manufacturers see the data whoring, privacy violating business. Manufacturers put in "smart" oses into TVs so they can begin recording what you are watching, saying (they have mics and you agree to the TOS they cna record your living room!) or even doing so they can whore out for more profit than they made on you buying the tv.
FakeComments 7y ago
They still make dumb panels, eg. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW4G71Y/ https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW4G71Y/ I did precisely what you suggest: buy a TV and hook a streaming box to it.
- dwyerm 7y ago
  Same. I'm running an NEC E-series. The 'smart' features it has are an honest-to-god serial port for plugging it into automation. It's been a decent display to me. The only thing I would warn consumers about them is that you generally can't go see them in a showroom, so you've got to take some chances.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
Smart TV's have very little marginal cost to the manufacturer: A modern TV needs a beefy CPU anyways. There's nothing stopping you from treating a smart TV like a dumb TV. Just don't configure the network.
- landcoctos 7y ago
  > Just don't configure the network. I've read, but never confirmed that some smart TVs will queue data and then attempt to connect to unsecured networks to upload to the mothership.
  - toxik 7y ago
    Rip out the wifi antenna! Or put it inside some Faraday cage.
    - excalibur 7y ago
      > Or put it inside some Faraday cage. ...your TV? Are you going to hang out inside the cage with it? Or maybe watch it through the screen door? There's a use case for 4K, it has enough pixels so that even looking through the Faraday cage you still get 1080p.
      - hanniabu 7y ago
        The antenna, not the whole tv
  - mayniac 7y ago
    Don't take your tv out for a walk then.
bryanrasmussen 7y ago
washers and dryers are the last things that need to be smart. But TVs sure are up there.
sbhn 7y ago
You can buy a pc monitor with various input methods. There are no SMART pc monitors im aware of
jamiethompson 7y ago
My current "Smart TV" setup is a 10 year old 42" dumb tv with an Amazon Fire TV stick plugged into the back. I don't know what I'll do when it dies (it's dying). I wish you could just buy modern TVs that are essentially just monitors.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  Serious question, why do you need a giant TV? Why not just use a personal device like a computer, tablet, or phone to watch whatever? I imagine you'll say something about watching TV with other people, which seems fair, but in my experience people don't watch TV "together". The TV is on, maybe one person is paying attention to it, most are just on their phone, or talking to eachother. Maybe my experience is an outlier here.
  - FrightHorse 7y ago
    No one needs a giant TV, but a lot of people 'like' a bigger screen. A lot of media is just better on a big screen. It's the whole reason a great many people enjoy or even prefer watching movies on a theater screen. I don't think there's much more a reason that, nor do folk need more reason than that.
  - photojosh 7y ago
    I'm staring at a screen 50cm away for 8 hours a day already... it's nice to give my eyes a break and stare at one 3m away for my remaining awake time. ;)
  - jamiethompson 7y ago
    The main reason is I have kids. In the past, I mainly just used a tablet to watch video.
- jayd16 7y ago
  Buy film studio monitors. They can get ugly and expensive though. Although, considering how big TVs are these days maybe there isn't a professional equivalent.
- 7y ago
cryptozeus 7y ago
So they can collect your viewing history and sell it to providers. Wasn’t the samsung tv trying to spy on users via its camera to track viewing activity ?
kalleboo 7y ago
> Why can't I buy just the panel that shows the image You can, they sell "just dumb panels" for commercial signage applications. They cost way more. Smart TVs selling your eyeballs and your data make them cheaper than dumb panels. And since most consumers buy on price, they also get the advantage of scale. So they're more expensive and they do less, their only market is a handful of privacy geeks who aren't going to just not connect it to the internet - a tiny market. https://www.businessinsider.com/smart-tv-data-collection-advertising-2019-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/smart-tv-data-collection-adv... > A January interview on The Verge's podcast with Vizio's chief technology officer, Bill Baxter, did a great job illuminating how this works. > "This is a cutthroat industry," Baxter said. "It's a 6% margin industry. The greater strategy is I really don't need to make money off of the TV. I need to cover my cost." > "It's not just about data collection. It's about post-purchase monetization of the TV." > "You sell some movies, you sell some TV shows, you sell some ads, you know," he said. "It's not really that different than the Verge website."
- StavrosK 7y ago
  Oh, interesting. I guess I'll just keep never connecting the TV to wifi, then.
  - targonca 7y ago
    Good luck with that. It will simply connect to a neighbouring open WiFi and transmit your data anyway :)
    - dddddaviddddd 7y ago
      Maybe remove the wifi card or antennas?
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      Nah, thank God for the GDPR.
    - tremendo 7y ago
      What data? If the TV isn't online, then why would you enter any data on it? I guess you could always connect a Roku and then give your data to Roku, or a Chromecast since Google already has your data, or a FireTV stick, since Amazon already has your data. Well, at least Samsung/LG/Sony/Vizio/etc don't, reduce a little bit the attack surface.
jayd16 7y ago
Sounds great! But lets sell then together in a clean package with no setup. Seems obvious to me why they sell.
GordonS 7y ago
> TVs seem like the last thing that needs to be smart. Why can't I buy just the panel that shows the image and then connect whatever Android TV box I want so I can display the video? You can still buy "non-smart" TVs and do this. But I think most people want this functionality built in to the TV, for 2 reasons: 1. Aesthetics. For example, my TV is wall mounted, and I don't want a box strapped on the side of it with wires hanging out. 2. Ease of use. Most people want to plug it in and have it just work

NetOpWibby 7y ago

Watch Dogs

DoubleGlazing 7y ago

I think the biggest problem with smart TVs is that manufacturers abandon models after only a few years. You might only get updates for < 3 years and after that, well tough - your TV reached the end of its supported period. No more new functionality and crucially no more security updates. Most people will still use the TV and keep it connected to their network without realising the security risks. And the above is for mainstream TV brands, imagine how bad it is for weird off-brands and store own-brands where the original software is of unknown provenance and the chances of any updates is nill.

kalleboo 7y ago
EU countries have consumer protection laws that cover manufacturing defects for a reasonable period of use. Those laws need to be clarified to also cover security updates. If a TV that breaks due to bad capacitors after 3 years is covered for a refund, so should a TV that has known security holes that don't get patched. "Users don't care" you say - well the tabloids would have a field day with "GET A FREE NEW TV WITH THIS ONE SECRET TRICK" headlines getting people to return them.
rhinoceraptor 7y ago
I just hope they never start embedding mobile radios in TVs to circumvent people who know better than to connect their TV to their network. I would imagine they can exfiltrate their tracking info with very little network traffic over LTE.
- DoubleGlazing 7y ago
  Back in the late 90s when digital TV was being rolled out, RTÉ in Ireland developed a technology called WiNDS. You won't find much technical information about it online because it never moved beyond the prototype phase. WiNDS provided a return path for ordering PPV events and other interactivity by embedding a GSM data modem in your set top box. It would transmit back to base using your regular TV antenna.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago

whenchamenia 7y ago

Reminder that most tvs are smart, because their price is subsidized by selling your data. The extra cost for a 'dumb tv'/monitor is payin for your privacy.

jcims 7y ago

Did he actually 'take over' the TV or just overpower the OTA broadcast? If the latter then the 'Smart' part is irrelevant (and so is the drone for that matter). A yagi with 50 watt UHF amplifier would likely do just as well from the ground. A tempest attack on a display, on the other hand, would be more interesting and the drone might actually be useful for that. Add a gimbal for a directional antenna and you'd be golden. https://github.com/martinmarinov/TempestSDR https://github.com/martinmarinov/TempestSDR

pilsetnieks 7y ago
> Did he actually 'take over' the TV or just overpower the OTA broadcast? If the latter then the 'Smart' part is irrelevant (and so is the drone for that matter). A yagi with 50 watt UHF amplifier would likely do just as well from the ground. He overpowered the OTA broadcast, the drone is unneccessary and it can be done with an amp and a directional antenna. How do I know it? It says so right in the article.
- jcims 7y ago
  I didn’t make it that far. The obviously oversold attack depleted my interest.
jowsie 7y ago
If you watch the demo video closely it's just a poorly tracked overlay stuck into the TV frame. I'm not sure what I was supposed to get from that 'demonstration'.

ddingus 7y ago

I have a Samsung Smart Plasma TV. 1080p It is fast, 3D capable. I actually have hooked it up to my computer to do real high end CAD (NX) in 3D. Frankly, it is amazing. I probably am the only one in North America who does it. Spiffy, and I really am sad plasma displays are no longer produced. Might just score another one while I can. Nothing beats glowing phosphorus in glass man! I did update it for newer codecs to play movies on USB, but that is it. Totally unsupported now. I like to buy the Smart models on clearance. I got this one, and it is huge, for like 800 bucks. Ignoring the smart part can be a cost savings if one looks.