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This seems silly. Accepting cash endangers the lives of employees and generally enables all sorts of financial shenanigans. Rather than attacking the business,

This seems silly. Accepting cash endangers the lives of employees and generally enables all sorts of financial shenanigans. Rather than attacking the business, the ACLU should address the structural issues that prevent people from participating in the mainstream economy.

darth_skywalker 7y ago
>> Accepting cash endangers the lives of employees and generally enables all sorts of financial shenanigans. Financial "shenanigans" seem to be more likely with credit/debit cards actually.
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  Agreed. Plus there's a complete loss of anonymity with ubiquitous credit card use.
- topkai22 7y ago
  I think the shenanigans referred to are on the part of the merchant (not reporting income, stealing from the till or enabling bribes) rather than the consumer (card fraud, etc.)
- mullingitover 7y ago
  There's something like 2 trillion dollars laundered annually, and a lot of this happens through shops that use anonymous cash transactions to do it.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Source?
    - mullingitover 7y ago
      > "The estimated amount of money laundered globally in one year is 2 - 5% of global GDP, or $800 billion - $2 trillion in current US dollars. Though the margin between those figures is huge, even the lower estimate underlines the seriousness of the problem governments have pledged to address." https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/globalization.html https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/globalizatio...
      - dredmorbius 7y ago
        I meant source for "a lot of this happens through shops that use anonymous cash transactions". $2 trillion in $10 bodega transactions is 200 billion bodega transactions. Something tells me it's not the silver in the till that's the main problem. Or even the notes.
krageon 7y ago
> Accepting cash endangers the lives of employees It's not unreasonable to assume you live in a normal part of the world where having money doesn't mean you get murdered.
- dzhiurgis 7y ago
  I've once went to a strip club in Hawaii. Stripper just grab a 1 dollar note and cleaned the strip pole with it. US dollars are one of the most yucky currencies. First you have 1 dollar note that is pointless at this economy. Then, they are still made of paper. Finally, amount of cash in use is astonishing. From my XP NZ is 99.99% cashless, while Lithuania about 95% (I don't carry any cash tho and ignore business that don't accept cards - they usually are not paying tax). Also wanted to reiterate how amazingly convenient digital banking has become in EU. I've signed up for Monese - in about 5 minutes of digital verification I've got IBAN account setup and a debit card sent to my home address. That's longer than I had to wait on a phone to get by traditional bank account reactivated.
  - krageon 7y ago
    I am aware of how nice the EU is, but that's not really germane. I was making the point that holding cash does not equal getting killed unless you live in a very bad part of the world.
- oliwarner 7y ago
  Cashiers get assaulted —and much worse— all around the world for relatively small sums. Do you suppose they would if there was no cash to steal?
esnowrackley 7y ago
> Rather than attacking the business, the ACLU should address the structural issues that prevent people from participating in the mainstream economy. But, that's exactly what they're doing here. Businesses are an institutionalized, structural component of society and, believe it or not, cash purchases are still part of the mainstream economy. I know you mean that the ACLU should be focused on making plastic accessible to those who don't have access yet, but I think it's worth acknowledging that the issues with going full plastic might be significantly more difficult to tackle than simply preserving the existing payments system. If we're addressing the systemic inequity behind access to banked payments we're going to have to solve issues pertaining to financial stability, proof of identity and reform an incredibly large, complex bureaucracy which has been designed to exclude the people who don't have access. While you're busy addressing the broader systemic inequity of our finance system, the people who you're trying to help are still going to be facing exclusion by businesses who have gone cashless. If we accept the premise that a cashless society is a desirable end goal and the very true fact that it isn't the fault of vendors that people have been systemically excluded from newer payments systems, we should also acknowledge there isn't an easy way to fix that. Until that's fixed, it will be up to these businesses to choose whether or not they're going to act in a way that excludes customers with cash.

darth_skywalker 7y ago

>> Accepting cash endangers the lives of employees and generally enables all sorts of financial shenanigans. Financial "shenanigans" seem to be more likely with credit/debit cards actually.

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
Agreed. Plus there's a complete loss of anonymity with ubiquitous credit card use.
topkai22 7y ago
I think the shenanigans referred to are on the part of the merchant (not reporting income, stealing from the till or enabling bribes) rather than the consumer (card fraud, etc.)
mullingitover 7y ago
There's something like 2 trillion dollars laundered annually, and a lot of this happens through shops that use anonymous cash transactions to do it.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Source?
  - mullingitover 7y ago
    > "The estimated amount of money laundered globally in one year is 2 - 5% of global GDP, or $800 billion - $2 trillion in current US dollars. Though the margin between those figures is huge, even the lower estimate underlines the seriousness of the problem governments have pledged to address." https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/globalization.html https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/globalizatio...
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      I meant source for "a lot of this happens through shops that use anonymous cash transactions". $2 trillion in $10 bodega transactions is 200 billion bodega transactions. Something tells me it's not the silver in the till that's the main problem. Or even the notes.

krageon 7y ago

> Accepting cash endangers the lives of employees It's not unreasonable to assume you live in a normal part of the world where having money doesn't mean you get murdered.

dzhiurgis 7y ago
I've once went to a strip club in Hawaii. Stripper just grab a 1 dollar note and cleaned the strip pole with it. US dollars are one of the most yucky currencies. First you have 1 dollar note that is pointless at this economy. Then, they are still made of paper. Finally, amount of cash in use is astonishing. From my XP NZ is 99.99% cashless, while Lithuania about 95% (I don't carry any cash tho and ignore business that don't accept cards - they usually are not paying tax). Also wanted to reiterate how amazingly convenient digital banking has become in EU. I've signed up for Monese - in about 5 minutes of digital verification I've got IBAN account setup and a debit card sent to my home address. That's longer than I had to wait on a phone to get by traditional bank account reactivated.
- krageon 7y ago
  I am aware of how nice the EU is, but that's not really germane. I was making the point that holding cash does not equal getting killed unless you live in a very bad part of the world.
oliwarner 7y ago
Cashiers get assaulted —and much worse— all around the world for relatively small sums. Do you suppose they would if there was no cash to steal?

esnowrackley 7y ago

> Rather than attacking the business, the ACLU should address the structural issues that prevent people from participating in the mainstream economy. But, that's exactly what they're doing here. Businesses are an institutionalized, structural component of society and, believe it or not, cash purchases are still part of the mainstream economy. I know you mean that the ACLU should be focused on making plastic accessible to those who don't have access yet, but I think it's worth acknowledging that the issues with going full plastic might be significantly more difficult to tackle than simply preserving the existing payments system. If we're addressing the systemic inequity behind access to banked payments we're going to have to solve issues pertaining to financial stability, proof of identity and reform an incredibly large, complex bureaucracy which has been designed to exclude the people who don't have access. While you're busy addressing the broader systemic inequity of our finance system, the people who you're trying to help are still going to be facing exclusion by businesses who have gone cashless. If we accept the premise that a cashless society is a desirable end goal and the very true fact that it isn't the fault of vendors that people have been systemically excluded from newer payments systems, we should also acknowledge there isn't an easy way to fix that. Until that's fixed, it will be up to these businesses to choose whether or not they're going to act in a way that excludes customers with cash.