7 ms·

Good way to teach the kids to team up against the parents. There isn't some secret to raising kids. Just create good/bad consequences for good/bad behavior. Ma

Good way to teach the kids to team up against the parents. There isn't some secret to raising kids. Just create good/bad consequences for good/bad behavior. Make sure they understand you love them, and your goal is to teach them to be good. Their behavior is simply choosing the method in which they are taught.

synnik 16y ago
But there is a secret: The goal is not to raise good kids. The goal is to raise good adults.
- bartonfink 16y ago
  I have a daughter on the way in May, and of all the parenting books I've read to try to prepare, that may be the most insightful thing on the subject I've seen. You just floored me. Good f'ing show, sir - good f'ing show.
  - wazoox 16y ago
    If you want another free, sincere advice : what you say doesn't matter, only how you behave, because the children just imitate you. For a start, never, ever lie to children, or try to trump or manipulate them.
- cabalamat 16y ago
  That's the problem with parenting: you don't know if you've done it right until your kids are 25.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >The goal is not to raise good kids. The goal is to raise good adults. This sounds like an empty aphorism to me. I don't want my kids to be just good adults I want them to be good kids too. I don't mean good in the sense of undemanding behaviourly or conforming or that sort of thing I mean I want them to be fulfilled as much as possible in their childhood too, happy. Someone just accused me of being unnecessarily argumentative so I'm wary of that. But, really one does have to define what a good adult is and consider what you mean to obviate by "not [raising] good kids".
  - synnik 16y ago
    I find it to be far from empty, and it helps me in my decisions. shrug Raising good adults does not preclude raising good kids, so I do find your response to be a bit combative. Just because you have one clear goal in mind does not mean that other goals are not achieved along the way. I don't really want to get into details of how I apply this concept to my parenting -- my reason for posting was exactly the opposite. I want parents to stop (for a moment) focusing on the details, stop worrying about specific techniques, and look at the bigger picture - what are you really striving for over the next 5, 10, 20 years with your kids? And are your current actions supporting that?
    - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
      >Raising good adults does not preclude raising good kids, so I do find your response to be a bit combative. It's the "not to raise good kids" part that turns me off. Surely it should be "to raise good kids _and_ good adults"?
- johngalt 16y ago
  Of course the idea is to mature them, but what does maturity mean? How do you reach that point? Do you think my method won't get you there?
  - synnik 16y ago
    I think your statements are accurate. I was not disagreeing with what you said, just pointing out a deeper goal behind it.
chc 16y ago
Does your method have 100% effectiveness in creating good and productive adults? Because otherwise it seems like there is room for improvement. It's also rather vague, while effective parenting is distressingly high on specifics. The "secret" (if you would call it that) described here would appear to fit your description — there's a bad consequence for fighting and a good consequence for apologizing.
- johngalt 16y ago
  Until little Johnny(kid1) figures out that being stuck in his room is more palatible to him than it is to little Susie(kid2). Then he wins every disagreement by fiat. Gaining power over your sibling wouldn't be described as a bad consequence to most children.
btilly 16y ago
Do you have kids? I always wonder that when I see someone handing out simplistic child rearing advice. The truth is always more complex. And most parents come to understand that. First piece of complexity. We don't want kids to just follow the rules. We want them to understand them. Which means that you don't just train them to follow your rules, you need to explain your rules. Second piece of complexity. Small kids have non-obvious needs around learning about boundaries by crossing them repeatedly. It is not as simple as "the kid is behaving badly". This is a necessary learning process. Therefore you need to deliberately set up boundaries that you expect to be violated repeatedly. Crossing those should have very reliable consequences (this helps the kid learn where the boundary is), but not serious ones. Third complication. Adults have limits as well. As much as we might wish we were perfectly patient people whose tempers never fray, we aren't. And kids will discover those buttons. Part of good parenting is finding ways to keep yourself from being pushed too far. (Big, big hint. Most really big blow-ups happen when one or all parties are short on sleep. Be aware of this and compensate.) I could go on at length, but I hope I've made my point. Just training kids with operant conditioning is not sufficient to be a decent parent.
- johngalt 16y ago
  Yes I do have kids, and I wonder the same thing about people that are overly complex about a process that's quite simple. Show me a parent that sets up complicated rules for themselves and I'll show you a parent that's trying to rationalize. The parent that looks at their kids and says "I think I'll manipulate my two children to punish each other" is abdicating their role. Many will retreat in the face of a tantrum, and advance on kids that behave. Consider the parent that pushes their straight A student for "another" extra curricular activity, or the parent that helplessly offers bribe after bribe as their child runs wild in a public setting. I've even seen the consequences entirely dependent on the mood of the adult, and the behavior of the kid is secondary. Both your first and second point agree with the focus of my comment. (First point) Teach the rules by (Second point) having consequences. Third point is easily inferred, because I focus on the child's behavior determining consequences, not parental behavior.
  - btilly 16y ago

synnik 16y ago

But there is a secret: The goal is not to raise good kids. The goal is to raise good adults.

bartonfink 16y ago
I have a daughter on the way in May, and of all the parenting books I've read to try to prepare, that may be the most insightful thing on the subject I've seen. You just floored me. Good f'ing show, sir - good f'ing show.
- wazoox 16y ago
  If you want another free, sincere advice : what you say doesn't matter, only how you behave, because the children just imitate you. For a start, never, ever lie to children, or try to trump or manipulate them.
cabalamat 16y ago
That's the problem with parenting: you don't know if you've done it right until your kids are 25.
pbhjpbhj 16y ago
>The goal is not to raise good kids. The goal is to raise good adults. This sounds like an empty aphorism to me. I don't want my kids to be just good adults I want them to be good kids too. I don't mean good in the sense of undemanding behaviourly or conforming or that sort of thing I mean I want them to be fulfilled as much as possible in their childhood too, happy. Someone just accused me of being unnecessarily argumentative so I'm wary of that. But, really one does have to define what a good adult is and consider what you mean to obviate by "not [raising] good kids".
- synnik 16y ago
  I find it to be far from empty, and it helps me in my decisions. shrug Raising good adults does not preclude raising good kids, so I do find your response to be a bit combative. Just because you have one clear goal in mind does not mean that other goals are not achieved along the way. I don't really want to get into details of how I apply this concept to my parenting -- my reason for posting was exactly the opposite. I want parents to stop (for a moment) focusing on the details, stop worrying about specific techniques, and look at the bigger picture - what are you really striving for over the next 5, 10, 20 years with your kids? And are your current actions supporting that?
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    >Raising good adults does not preclude raising good kids, so I do find your response to be a bit combative. It's the "not to raise good kids" part that turns me off. Surely it should be "to raise good kids _and_ good adults"?
johngalt 16y ago
Of course the idea is to mature them, but what does maturity mean? How do you reach that point? Do you think my method won't get you there?
- synnik 16y ago
  I think your statements are accurate. I was not disagreeing with what you said, just pointing out a deeper goal behind it.

chc 16y ago

Does your method have 100% effectiveness in creating good and productive adults? Because otherwise it seems like there is room for improvement. It's also rather vague, while effective parenting is distressingly high on specifics. The "secret" (if you would call it that) described here would appear to fit your description — there's a bad consequence for fighting and a good consequence for apologizing.

johngalt 16y ago
Until little Johnny(kid1) figures out that being stuck in his room is more palatible to him than it is to little Susie(kid2). Then he wins every disagreement by fiat. Gaining power over your sibling wouldn't be described as a bad consequence to most children.

btilly 16y ago

Do you have kids? I always wonder that when I see someone handing out simplistic child rearing advice. The truth is always more complex. And most parents come to understand that. First piece of complexity. We don't want kids to just follow the rules. We want them to understand them. Which means that you don't just train them to follow your rules, you need to explain your rules. Second piece of complexity. Small kids have non-obvious needs around learning about boundaries by crossing them repeatedly. It is not as simple as "the kid is behaving badly". This is a necessary learning process. Therefore you need to deliberately set up boundaries that you expect to be violated repeatedly. Crossing those should have very reliable consequences (this helps the kid learn where the boundary is), but not serious ones. Third complication. Adults have limits as well. As much as we might wish we were perfectly patient people whose tempers never fray, we aren't. And kids will discover those buttons. Part of good parenting is finding ways to keep yourself from being pushed too far. (Big, big hint. Most really big blow-ups happen when one or all parties are short on sleep. Be aware of this and compensate.) I could go on at length, but I hope I've made my point. Just training kids with operant conditioning is not sufficient to be a decent parent.

johngalt 16y ago
Yes I do have kids, and I wonder the same thing about people that are overly complex about a process that's quite simple. Show me a parent that sets up complicated rules for themselves and I'll show you a parent that's trying to rationalize. The parent that looks at their kids and says "I think I'll manipulate my two children to punish each other" is abdicating their role. Many will retreat in the face of a tantrum, and advance on kids that behave. Consider the parent that pushes their straight A student for "another" extra curricular activity, or the parent that helplessly offers bribe after bribe as their child runs wild in a public setting. I've even seen the consequences entirely dependent on the mood of the adult, and the behavior of the kid is secondary. Both your first and second point agree with the focus of my comment. (First point) Teach the rules by (Second point) having consequences. Third point is easily inferred, because I focus on the child's behavior determining consequences, not parental behavior.
- btilly 16y ago