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Yeah it's tricky because the US is a bit shy about national IDs for vague reasons that seem loosely associated with anti-authoritarian reasons and distrust of g

by rtkwe 7y ago

Yeah it's tricky because the US is a bit shy about national IDs for vague reasons that seem loosely associated with anti-authoritarian reasons and distrust of government. Sure we can't be forced to 'show us your papers' because they don't physically exist but the government knows who 99% of citizens are if they wanted to work at it even a bit and it's not like states are going to be the bastions of fighting back and they do have IDs pretty much everyone gets.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Indeed. No one cries foul on a passport or driver's license, but a national ID card is so draconian /s Maybe if you converted passports to smartcards, and then slowly turned it into a national ID you could make this work.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  There is a passport card with a chip, but it is only usable at land crossings. Ostensibly because the world has agreed on what a passport is.
- Bartweiss 7y ago
  > No one cries foul on a passport or driver's license, but a national ID card is so draconian Fair point, but it's worth noting that lots of people don't have either document. Hence, say, the voter ID law fight: many people genuinely have no standard identity document except SSN. One other aside is that driver's licenses are a remarkably bad identification document. Even plenty of bars won't take out of state driver's licenses, or will outright declare real ones to be fake. And dealing with government offices, I've had several iterations of "that state's license ID has a different number of digits, so I can't use it in our system".
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Yes, I agree entirely. Which is why the cost must be driven down for obtaining a national ID card, and you should be able to obtain one as easily as going to to a DMV. Someone in this thread suggesting using the postal service for such a task, which I would be in favor of with adequate controls in place for safeguarding the PII of citizens. > One other aside is that driver's licenses are a remarkably bad identification document. This is changing with REAL ID; all states are either compliant with new ID issuance and doc standards or have received an extension. https://www.dhs.gov/real-id https://www.dhs.gov/real-id
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      Yeah the only way I'd ever say election ID laws were ok and no discriminatory attempts to shape the electorate would be if it were accompanied by a) a massive expensive push to ensure everyone had and ID (mobile DMVs going and registering people who can't get out to an office, free licenses, etc) and automatic voter registration (because if you're going to say everyone needs to have this to vote I damn well be able to vote with just the ID).
  - bonzini 7y ago
    > plenty of bars won't take out of state driver's licenses, or will outright declare real ones to be fake Italians that have an id card predating electronic id are routinely bumped off American bars because to them it looks like it's just a piece of paper with a photo stitched on top. Yet, identity theft is a problem in the US and not in Italy... In fact, even though that id card actually is relatively easy to forget, it does have some watermarks and special government stamps. In fact, it's probably easier to fake an electronic id card with a piece of plastic, if you know no one is going to try using the smartcard functionality.
- 420codebro 7y ago
  I would very much like to see that. Look at the Department of Defense. If I recall they were at one time the biggest single smartcard user in the world, as everyone's identity badge is also used as a smartcard to log into your PC, etc.
reaperducer 7y ago
the US is a bit shy about national IDs for vague reasons that seem loosely associated with anti-authoritarian reasons and distrust of government. It's called "history." And as they say, those who don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  States give access to their driver's license databases to federal authorities. Any safety you perceive due to the lack of a national ID system is an illusion.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Those who over-apply historical lessons in an incorrect context may serve as a future historical lesson in mistakes made, though.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  But aren't social security numbers effectively being used as national IDs right now? The fact that that they suck just makes fraud easier. I don't see how modern society can function without some form of universal authentication. Alternately, if you live in a forest and don't need or want to participate in the financial system, I'm all for making a hypothetical national ID opt-in.
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    SSNs aren't really an ID they're an ID number, without looking at other databases and traces left there's only really a name associated with each and no biometric data so there's no real way to confirm that the person you're looking at is actually the person assigned XXX-XX-XXXX.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - bigwavedave 7y ago
      Which is what makes it such a huge problem- they're treated as ID's whether they're supposed to or not. Regardless of original intent, regardless of what you or the government or anyone else says, they are treated as ID's by the vast majority of business and organizations. That's the whole point of this discussion and why it's such a problem.
pault 7y ago
There is a significant percentage of the US population that believes any attempt at a new national ID is the mark of the beast from the biblical book of Revelations. I shit you not. These are the same people that would consider a war in the middle East to be a good thing, because it means Jesus is coming to usher in the millennial reign of heaven on Earth.
souterrain 7y ago
I’m quite certain the US government demands “show us your papers” of many individuals within 100 miles of the US border on a daily basis.
- refurb 7y ago
  Only if you're an immigrant. If you're a US citizen, you don't need to provide any proof.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    How do you prove you don't need to provide proof? Or do the police have to prove that you do?
    - rtkwe 7y ago
      Nope if they think you should have proof and you don't you can be detained and there's no strict limits on how long you can be detained it's essentially till they're satisfied you've proven your citizenship.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Constitutional rights are as it relates to the fourth amendment are a bit fuzzy within 100 miles of the US border. Even as a citizen, you'll need to provide proof or sit in lockup until CBP is satisfied you belong in the country. The ability to provide oral attestation of citizenship was deprecated by the justice department many years ago. https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
  - mattnewton 7y ago
    Well, actually you need to prove you are a citizen if you fit the profile of an immigrant within 100 miles of the border. And if you don't do so to their satisfaction the border patrol will detain you indefinitely. Yes, in America. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dallas-born-citizen-picked-border-patrol-detained-three-weeks https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dalla...

by rtkwe 7y ago

toomuchtodo 7y ago

Indeed. No one cries foul on a passport or driver's license, but a national ID card is so draconian /s Maybe if you converted passports to smartcards, and then slowly turned it into a national ID you could make this work.

rootusrootus 7y ago
There is a passport card with a chip, but it is only usable at land crossings. Ostensibly because the world has agreed on what a passport is.
Bartweiss 7y ago
> No one cries foul on a passport or driver's license, but a national ID card is so draconian Fair point, but it's worth noting that lots of people don't have either document. Hence, say, the voter ID law fight: many people genuinely have no standard identity document except SSN. One other aside is that driver's licenses are a remarkably bad identification document. Even plenty of bars won't take out of state driver's licenses, or will outright declare real ones to be fake. And dealing with government offices, I've had several iterations of "that state's license ID has a different number of digits, so I can't use it in our system".
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Yes, I agree entirely. Which is why the cost must be driven down for obtaining a national ID card, and you should be able to obtain one as easily as going to to a DMV. Someone in this thread suggesting using the postal service for such a task, which I would be in favor of with adequate controls in place for safeguarding the PII of citizens. > One other aside is that driver's licenses are a remarkably bad identification document. This is changing with REAL ID; all states are either compliant with new ID issuance and doc standards or have received an extension. https://www.dhs.gov/real-id https://www.dhs.gov/real-id
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    Yeah the only way I'd ever say election ID laws were ok and no discriminatory attempts to shape the electorate would be if it were accompanied by a) a massive expensive push to ensure everyone had and ID (mobile DMVs going and registering people who can't get out to an office, free licenses, etc) and automatic voter registration (because if you're going to say everyone needs to have this to vote I damn well be able to vote with just the ID).
- bonzini 7y ago
  > plenty of bars won't take out of state driver's licenses, or will outright declare real ones to be fake Italians that have an id card predating electronic id are routinely bumped off American bars because to them it looks like it's just a piece of paper with a photo stitched on top. Yet, identity theft is a problem in the US and not in Italy... In fact, even though that id card actually is relatively easy to forget, it does have some watermarks and special government stamps. In fact, it's probably easier to fake an electronic id card with a piece of plastic, if you know no one is going to try using the smartcard functionality.
420codebro 7y ago
I would very much like to see that. Look at the Department of Defense. If I recall they were at one time the biggest single smartcard user in the world, as everyone's identity badge is also used as a smartcard to log into your PC, etc.

reaperducer 7y ago

the US is a bit shy about national IDs for vague reasons that seem loosely associated with anti-authoritarian reasons and distrust of government. It's called "history." And as they say, those who don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
States give access to their driver's license databases to federal authorities. Any safety you perceive due to the lack of a national ID system is an illusion.
ceejayoz 7y ago
Those who over-apply historical lessons in an incorrect context may serve as a future historical lesson in mistakes made, though.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
But aren't social security numbers effectively being used as national IDs right now? The fact that that they suck just makes fraud easier. I don't see how modern society can function without some form of universal authentication. Alternately, if you live in a forest and don't need or want to participate in the financial system, I'm all for making a hypothetical national ID opt-in.
- rtkwe 7y ago
  SSNs aren't really an ID they're an ID number, without looking at other databases and traces left there's only really a name associated with each and no biometric data so there's no real way to confirm that the person you're looking at is actually the person assigned XXX-XX-XXXX.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - bigwavedave 7y ago
    Which is what makes it such a huge problem- they're treated as ID's whether they're supposed to or not. Regardless of original intent, regardless of what you or the government or anyone else says, they are treated as ID's by the vast majority of business and organizations. That's the whole point of this discussion and why it's such a problem.

pault 7y ago

There is a significant percentage of the US population that believes any attempt at a new national ID is the mark of the beast from the biblical book of Revelations. I shit you not. These are the same people that would consider a war in the middle East to be a good thing, because it means Jesus is coming to usher in the millennial reign of heaven on Earth.

souterrain 7y ago

I’m quite certain the US government demands “show us your papers” of many individuals within 100 miles of the US border on a daily basis.

refurb 7y ago
Only if you're an immigrant. If you're a US citizen, you don't need to provide any proof.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  How do you prove you don't need to provide proof? Or do the police have to prove that you do?
  - rtkwe 7y ago
    Nope if they think you should have proof and you don't you can be detained and there's no strict limits on how long you can be detained it's essentially till they're satisfied you've proven your citizenship.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Constitutional rights are as it relates to the fourth amendment are a bit fuzzy within 100 miles of the US border. Even as a citizen, you'll need to provide proof or sit in lockup until CBP is satisfied you belong in the country. The ability to provide oral attestation of citizenship was deprecated by the justice department many years ago. https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
- mattnewton 7y ago
  Well, actually you need to prove you are a citizen if you fit the profile of an immigrant within 100 miles of the border. And if you don't do so to their satisfaction the border patrol will detain you indefinitely. Yes, in America. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dallas-born-citizen-picked-border-patrol-detained-three-weeks https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/07/22/dalla...