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Isn’t any job for life basically gone now? It’s the clarion call of the millennial generation - don’t expect loyalty from any company you work with or for. My

Isn’t any job for life basically gone now? It’s the clarion call of the millennial generation - don’t expect loyalty from any company you work with or for. My understanding is that those with law degrees see a ton of competition in the market, because it’s such a prestigious professional calling on the order of doctors but with better work environments. Why wouldn’t it affect those at the partner level?

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
There might be new competition now at a certain level, but there's also the oversupply of lawyers and the continual closing of law firms all across america. Those are kind of competing stories about what is happening.
- mwnivek 7y ago
  The bimodal distribution of salaries [1] might support the idea of different stories at different levels within the legal world. Note this bimodality seems to have appeared around the year 2000 [2]. [1]: https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib [2]: https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/ https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-c...
  - danjayh 7y ago
    Aren't these salaries for new grads? I wonder if the gap between the high earners and the low earners narrows with experience.
- mamurphy 7y ago
  >There might be new competition now at a certain level, but there's also the oversupply of lawyers and the continual closing of law firms all across america. Those are kind of competing stories about what is happening. Can you rephrase so I can understand what you mean? "There might be competition on some level" BUT "there's also the oversupply of lawyers" -- that means that all the lawyers are competing with each other because there are too many. How are "the lawyers are competing" and "there is an oversupply" competing stories? An oversupply would lead to increased competition.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    Sorry, messed up with a typo I couldn't edit later. There is an oversupply of lawyers and law schools and law firms have closed. Yet as the article talks about, there is the article which talks about some thriving law firms, so it's not all bad. There was also the real partners and the not-partners, some of whom might become partners, others that were just paid by the hour and would not become partners. So I was trying to say that it wasn't a clear story, some good things, but because there are fewer good jobs for lawyers (and fewer high paid partner opportunities) there's also bad stories. But I'm sorry, my comment was unclear.
nimbius 7y ago
Call me a skeptic, because I'm a mechanic by trade who's had the same job for 15 years now. Pay still goes up but your responsibilities change. The communication between you and the shop is still damn important. Owners of bigger shops are always convinced they can backfill you with an army of apprentices and day laborers. Smaller shops are always scared you'll bankrupt them. Trust is character, and competence, according to the business gurus. I spend most of my days on big issues. Stripped head bolts and stuck cylinders are still a daily thing, but I also take on breaking bad news to big customers. Telling someone their fleet of aging Mac dumptrucks all need a rebuild is a big task. Explaining it in plain English is impossible for a lot of new guys. My question is do these partners ever take on new responsibilities? Or are they just cashing a paycheck
- Swizec 7y ago
  To summarize: If you provide more value than you cost, you’re always gonna have a job. It’s a business relationship. Ain’t nobody gonna pay you $5 if you only bring in $3. Everyone will fight to pay you $10 if you bring in $20
  - djmobley 7y ago
    Historically, partners in law firms haven’t had to add value themselves because they had junior lawyers to do that for them.
    - Danieru 7y ago
      Indeed, the deeper reason for that is how law firms are only allowed to be "professional companies", no limited liability shareholders allowed. Thus the industry could never be securitized and profits sold. Instead participating in the profits requires participating in the firm, even if only in risk and name only. This also speaks to why competition is hard to create. No outside limited liability partners means no VCes or passive investors. The closest a law firm can do is loans. Loans partners will be 100% personally liable for.
  - tsimionescu 7y ago
dmix 7y ago
Law degrees, even from the best schools arent in finite supply like they used to be. Every lawyer now has tons of competition for a small amount of cases, which mostly just plea out these days. There was some literature in the past showing the legal fields prices haven't been reduced to reflect the new reality of the marketplace supply as it has an insular and protective group who want to maintain an aura of "masters of some dark arts" and maintaining their "prestigious" class which is heavily self regulated. There's a lot of pressure on smaller-time lawyers not to undercut the rest of the firms. If the prices got reduced there would be a lot more case supply to go around as lawyers would be far more accessible to the average person widening the market. It's not just going to stay the same size, just with lower rates. Instead today it's kept artificially high and while the best work is limited to a small group, while other law degree holders fade into other fields or niches. A reduction in prices and eliminating the lawyer's false perception of exclusivity and class would also reduce the amount of people getting law degrees [1] which would offset the decline in price so it doesn't entirely cannibalize itself, still being a decent middle class job. Plus there will always be some cushy law gigs available, especially in corporate law, but it will be a status no longer applied to everyone with a law degree, which limits the entire market as a result. [1] assuming we don't even further disconnect both the financial costs of an expensive education + lengthy time investments they require (aka opportunity costs) from post-graduation job prospects. Especially when compared to other degrees, industries, and alternative job training/apprenticeship opportunities.
- javajosh 7y ago
  I'd guess that if prices fell the pressure on the justice system would grow even more, and I've heard they are already stretched to breaking. So, the government is probably also against lowering prices and making "justice" more accessible. Such an interesting, and horrible, time, when justice is de facto denied to all but the wealthiest of us. If this was explicit that would be one thing; but we still pay lip service to principles that we have long since abandoned. My belief is that the justice system, in particular jury trials, should become shorter, more frequent and exclusively online. You should be able to file a lawsuit and have it resolved in a week.
- bradleyjg 7y ago
nradov 7y ago
Law firm partners don't work for a company, they are the company.

NotSammyHagar 7y ago

There might be new competition now at a certain level, but there's also the oversupply of lawyers and the continual closing of law firms all across america. Those are kind of competing stories about what is happening.

mwnivek 7y ago
The bimodal distribution of salaries [1] might support the idea of different stories at different levels within the legal world. Note this bimodality seems to have appeared around the year 2000 [2]. [1]: https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib https://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib [2]: https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/ https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-c...
- danjayh 7y ago
  Aren't these salaries for new grads? I wonder if the gap between the high earners and the low earners narrows with experience.
mamurphy 7y ago
>There might be new competition now at a certain level, but there's also the oversupply of lawyers and the continual closing of law firms all across america. Those are kind of competing stories about what is happening. Can you rephrase so I can understand what you mean? "There might be competition on some level" BUT "there's also the oversupply of lawyers" -- that means that all the lawyers are competing with each other because there are too many. How are "the lawyers are competing" and "there is an oversupply" competing stories? An oversupply would lead to increased competition.
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  Sorry, messed up with a typo I couldn't edit later. There is an oversupply of lawyers and law schools and law firms have closed. Yet as the article talks about, there is the article which talks about some thriving law firms, so it's not all bad. There was also the real partners and the not-partners, some of whom might become partners, others that were just paid by the hour and would not become partners. So I was trying to say that it wasn't a clear story, some good things, but because there are fewer good jobs for lawyers (and fewer high paid partner opportunities) there's also bad stories. But I'm sorry, my comment was unclear.

nimbius 7y ago

Call me a skeptic, because I'm a mechanic by trade who's had the same job for 15 years now. Pay still goes up but your responsibilities change. The communication between you and the shop is still damn important. Owners of bigger shops are always convinced they can backfill you with an army of apprentices and day laborers. Smaller shops are always scared you'll bankrupt them. Trust is character, and competence, according to the business gurus. I spend most of my days on big issues. Stripped head bolts and stuck cylinders are still a daily thing, but I also take on breaking bad news to big customers. Telling someone their fleet of aging Mac dumptrucks all need a rebuild is a big task. Explaining it in plain English is impossible for a lot of new guys. My question is do these partners ever take on new responsibilities? Or are they just cashing a paycheck

Swizec 7y ago
To summarize: If you provide more value than you cost, you’re always gonna have a job. It’s a business relationship. Ain’t nobody gonna pay you $5 if you only bring in $3. Everyone will fight to pay you $10 if you bring in $20
- djmobley 7y ago
  Historically, partners in law firms haven’t had to add value themselves because they had junior lawyers to do that for them.
  - Danieru 7y ago
    Indeed, the deeper reason for that is how law firms are only allowed to be "professional companies", no limited liability shareholders allowed. Thus the industry could never be securitized and profits sold. Instead participating in the profits requires participating in the firm, even if only in risk and name only. This also speaks to why competition is hard to create. No outside limited liability partners means no VCes or passive investors. The closest a law firm can do is loans. Loans partners will be 100% personally liable for.
- tsimionescu 7y ago

dmix 7y ago

Law degrees, even from the best schools arent in finite supply like they used to be. Every lawyer now has tons of competition for a small amount of cases, which mostly just plea out these days. There was some literature in the past showing the legal fields prices haven't been reduced to reflect the new reality of the marketplace supply as it has an insular and protective group who want to maintain an aura of "masters of some dark arts" and maintaining their "prestigious" class which is heavily self regulated. There's a lot of pressure on smaller-time lawyers not to undercut the rest of the firms. If the prices got reduced there would be a lot more case supply to go around as lawyers would be far more accessible to the average person widening the market. It's not just going to stay the same size, just with lower rates. Instead today it's kept artificially high and while the best work is limited to a small group, while other law degree holders fade into other fields or niches. A reduction in prices and eliminating the lawyer's false perception of exclusivity and class would also reduce the amount of people getting law degrees [1] which would offset the decline in price so it doesn't entirely cannibalize itself, still being a decent middle class job. Plus there will always be some cushy law gigs available, especially in corporate law, but it will be a status no longer applied to everyone with a law degree, which limits the entire market as a result. [1] assuming we don't even further disconnect both the financial costs of an expensive education + lengthy time investments they require (aka opportunity costs) from post-graduation job prospects. Especially when compared to other degrees, industries, and alternative job training/apprenticeship opportunities.

javajosh 7y ago
I'd guess that if prices fell the pressure on the justice system would grow even more, and I've heard they are already stretched to breaking. So, the government is probably also against lowering prices and making "justice" more accessible. Such an interesting, and horrible, time, when justice is de facto denied to all but the wealthiest of us. If this was explicit that would be one thing; but we still pay lip service to principles that we have long since abandoned. My belief is that the justice system, in particular jury trials, should become shorter, more frequent and exclusively online. You should be able to file a lawsuit and have it resolved in a week.
bradleyjg 7y ago

nradov 7y ago

Law firm partners don't work for a company, they are the company.