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Speaking about cycling. Something I don't understand about bikes and e-bikes is their price. Why are they so incredibly expensive? How come economies of scale h

Speaking about cycling. Something I don't understand about bikes and e-bikes is their price. Why are they so incredibly expensive? How come economies of scale haven't made them dirt cheap?

analog31 7y ago
You can get a basic bike at a big-box store, or online, for between 100 and 200 bucks. If you attend to basic maintenance from the git-go, you can have a functioning bike.
- adrianN 7y ago
  As any smaller bicycle shop will tell you, these are not bikes, they're "bike shaped objects" and fairly dangerous due to the poor manufacturing. They're also really hard to ride due to their weight and high friction parts. You can get a decent bike for maybe 500€, in my experience. If you don't have enough money for that, you're far better of buying a used bike.
  - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
    I definitely second this. Big box store bikes are generally very low quality, plus they’re assembled by people who work there, so they probably lack proper bike mechanic experience. If you look closely you’ll see they may have the brakes incorrectly installed, the forks backwards, etc.
    - analog31 7y ago
      Indeed, final assembly is an issue with bikes, and a better shop will hopefully do a better job. Bikes are never fully assembled or tested before being shipped to the dealer or consumer. As a result, assembly and adjustment are beyond the control of the factory. This is true of virtually all bikes. My $500 bike was adjusted by the shop before I rode it home. In my view, the practicality and enjoyment of cycling is vastly improved by having some basic maintenance skills, to the point where I consider it to be a pre-requisite.
      - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
        Absolutely, even real bikes shops can mess up sometimes. I had them install a profiled 10 speed chain backwards one time. And you don’t need many tools to do 90% of repairs. YouTube, bike coops, and your local bike shop mechanics (may need to be bribed with beer) are all good resources.
        analog31 7y ago
        An amusing aside, I have a 1972 Schwinn frame with similar vintage parts on it. I can practically disassemble the whole thing with a couple of crescent wrenches.
    - narwally 7y ago
      Another issue is that they're not made to be repaired at all. If anything more than a tube breaks on it, then you'll likely be better off just buying another department store bike because the repair will either exceed the cost of the bike, or will be impossible because department store bikes don't always use standard components that a repair shop would even be able to order for you.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Hmm, are you sure you're not just being a snob? (I'm not saying you are, just wonder if you've asked yourself the question.) I've bought only cheaper bikes for myself and kids (often second-hand cheap bikes too). Whilst in comparison a bike for twice the price is a joy, they're certainly functional and I've never had one that has the appearance of being dangerous, nor has proved dangerous in regular use. You'll want to avoid cheap steel axles if you're doing jumps, and be aware of other limitations just like you can't enter a toboggan run on a plastic sledge. I'm in the UK, I'd have thought in notoriously litigious USA that supermarkets would be extremely wary of being negligent wrt safety of products they're selling?
  - lm28469 7y ago
    It's the same with anything you can buy though, TV, cars, bikes, laptops, shoes, chairs, &c. The low end is, well, the low end, it barely functions but is sufficient for most people. Do you call cheap android phones "phone shaped objects" too? You get what you pay for, a <$200 dollar bike will last you years, it'll be heavy, noisy, won't withstand abuse, will rust, but it'll get you from A to B just fine.
    - adrianN 7y ago
      A cheap android phone is unlikely to break spokes while going down a bumpy road and killing me. The cheap bikes tested by the German Stiftung Warentest did that.
wool_gather 7y ago
I'm not sure what you mean in regards to non-electric bikes. In my experience (living in U.S. cities), there's an extremely wide range that you can spend on a bike, from a hundred or so to extremes of multiple thousands. But you certainly don't need to spend thousands even if it's your daily commuter. One of the keys is that bikes are really really good at being refurbished; an old frame, if it's not in bad shape, can get cleaned and have new parts put on and be literally as good as new. You should have no trouble getting a very reliable, pleasant ride in the sub-$1000 range from your local bike shop. That's certainly far far less than any other form of transport. It's probably even in line with a year's worth of public transit, and will last well more than a year.
- rhinoceraptor 7y ago
  If you know how to work on bikes, you can find some great ones secondhand. I got my girlfriend and old Bridgestone, and just had to give it a tune up, replace the dry rotted tires and brake pads, new cables and grips, and then put fenders and a rack on it.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    What you call fenders for _cars_ we in the UK call bumpers; and they're like boat fenders, for allowing vehicles to bump without causing too much damage (they fend off the other vehicle). But your bike fenders appear to be what we call "mud guards" which don't act as "bumpers" at all but instead prevent mud/water from spraying up. Did I get that right, or do the "bike fenders" have some sort of anti bump facet to their design too?
    - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
      Yes, I mean mud guards. On a side note, I really wish there were ones that were easier to install, it took me at least two hours since trimming the mounting wire is so time consuming.
acdha 7y ago
Have they really hit that economy of scale point? It still seems like it’s at the niche point compared to the mature non-assist bike market – like cargo bikes or other not-uncommon but not yet highly-optimized markets. This also matters because some of the components aren’t the same: for example, all of the e-bikes I’ve seen used disc brakes and many had heavier duty drivetrains due to the extra torque, so that part should be expected to be more like a mountain bike than a cheap city bike. As they become more common I’d expect those components to become cheaper with high volume.
rhinoceraptor 7y ago
Bikes are kind of a strange industry, at least in the US. Almost all of the big brands steadfastly refuse to embrace online shopping, so you’re paying at least a hundred or two for brick and mortar bike shops. Second, cycling in the US is mostly for sport, so bike shops mostly sell road or mountain bikes, not utility bikes. And people who ride for sport are willing to spend a lot on this year’s new tech and lighter bikes. If you want a cheap, reliable bike, buy used. Try to find an older chromoly steel mountain bike with name brand components, for example Bridgestone. It will have fender and rack mounts, and clearance for wide tires.
- narwally 7y ago
  I work as a bike mechanic at one of the largest Specialized dealers in the US. A couple of times a week we have people that come in with bikes they bought from direct to consumer brands and attempted to assemble themselves. People regularly make serious errors when they assemble a bike themselves, and they're often dangerous and sometimes expensive to fix. Unless you're 100% confident in your bike mechanic skills, you'll likely spend all of the money you save buying online at your local bike shop to have them fix your own mistakes.
  - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
    There’s always idiots, but there are probably tons of people who have BikesDirect or Canyons and just never go to bike shops because the experience is more often than not bad and/or intimidating. Even with good bike shops, the experience of simple things like buying parts really sucks. I can’t search QBP, I have to ask an employee to do it for me.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 7y ago
A reasonable-quality battery pack for an ebike costs at least $400 at the retail level. That gets you about 600Wh with actual name-brand cells and a BMS that might last a few years or more. Add in a motor, controller, and incidentals, and it's at least a $600 premium for electrification. But most people like mid-drives (torque-sense pedal assist), so it's more like $800. So far, the economics have only hit mid-market. No point in spending over a grand just to get a truly shit Walmart-tier bicycle. Instead, they go to $1,500 and you get something more balanced. Check out Rad-city for economical examples. For conversions, $600 is about the current minimum for a 'reasonable' build. That's a $200 eBay hub-drive kit and a $400 name-brand-cell battery. $500 if you want a better build and individual-fuses on each cell (important for peace-of-mind if you're storing in an attached garage or something). $900 total if you want a decent mid-drive. It will come down, but right now no one is leaving profit on the table. The batteries and electronics simply cost a fair amount.
- avar 7y ago
  > [...]$600 premium for electrification. But most people like mid-drives (torque-sense pedal assist), so it's more like $800[...] I don't know about the US, but in the EU that "like" is a must-have, your bicycle isn't street-legal as a bicycle unless it's a pedal assist (pedelec). The cheap option of pressing a button to get power makes the bicycle an electric motorcycle or scooter, needing a license, helmet etc. So part of why they're expensive in the EU & other markets is regulatory, a drive train that can smoothly mix motor and pedal input without being clunky is more expensive to make than an electric scooter.
  - nbanks 7y ago
    I wonder how if this European study holds true in North America. The US and Canada have a regulation for maximum speed/power, but pedelec is optional. In Canada it's pretty easy to build faster/more powerful e-bikes that break the laws without getting caught, though I'm sure off the shelf bicycles do adhere to the regulations. I ride a conventional racing bike myself, but I like e-bikes because having more cyclists and faster cyclists is a good incentive for making more bike paths.
  - 7y ago

Speaking about cycling. Something I don't understand about bikes and e-bikes is their price. Why are they so incredibly expensive? How come economies of scale haven't made them dirt cheap?

analog31 7y ago

You can get a basic bike at a big-box store, or online, for between 100 and 200 bucks. If you attend to basic maintenance from the git-go, you can have a functioning bike.

adrianN 7y ago
As any smaller bicycle shop will tell you, these are not bikes, they're "bike shaped objects" and fairly dangerous due to the poor manufacturing. They're also really hard to ride due to their weight and high friction parts. You can get a decent bike for maybe 500€, in my experience. If you don't have enough money for that, you're far better of buying a used bike.
- rhinoceraptor 7y ago
  I definitely second this. Big box store bikes are generally very low quality, plus they’re assembled by people who work there, so they probably lack proper bike mechanic experience. If you look closely you’ll see they may have the brakes incorrectly installed, the forks backwards, etc.
  - analog31 7y ago
    Indeed, final assembly is an issue with bikes, and a better shop will hopefully do a better job. Bikes are never fully assembled or tested before being shipped to the dealer or consumer. As a result, assembly and adjustment are beyond the control of the factory. This is true of virtually all bikes. My $500 bike was adjusted by the shop before I rode it home. In my view, the practicality and enjoyment of cycling is vastly improved by having some basic maintenance skills, to the point where I consider it to be a pre-requisite.
    - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
      Absolutely, even real bikes shops can mess up sometimes. I had them install a profiled 10 speed chain backwards one time. And you don’t need many tools to do 90% of repairs. YouTube, bike coops, and your local bike shop mechanics (may need to be bribed with beer) are all good resources.
      - analog31 7y ago
        An amusing aside, I have a 1972 Schwinn frame with similar vintage parts on it. I can practically disassemble the whole thing with a couple of crescent wrenches.
  - narwally 7y ago
    Another issue is that they're not made to be repaired at all. If anything more than a tube breaks on it, then you'll likely be better off just buying another department store bike because the repair will either exceed the cost of the bike, or will be impossible because department store bikes don't always use standard components that a repair shop would even be able to order for you.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  Hmm, are you sure you're not just being a snob? (I'm not saying you are, just wonder if you've asked yourself the question.) I've bought only cheaper bikes for myself and kids (often second-hand cheap bikes too). Whilst in comparison a bike for twice the price is a joy, they're certainly functional and I've never had one that has the appearance of being dangerous, nor has proved dangerous in regular use. You'll want to avoid cheap steel axles if you're doing jumps, and be aware of other limitations just like you can't enter a toboggan run on a plastic sledge. I'm in the UK, I'd have thought in notoriously litigious USA that supermarkets would be extremely wary of being negligent wrt safety of products they're selling?
- lm28469 7y ago
  It's the same with anything you can buy though, TV, cars, bikes, laptops, shoes, chairs, &c. The low end is, well, the low end, it barely functions but is sufficient for most people. Do you call cheap android phones "phone shaped objects" too? You get what you pay for, a <$200 dollar bike will last you years, it'll be heavy, noisy, won't withstand abuse, will rust, but it'll get you from A to B just fine.
  - adrianN 7y ago
    A cheap android phone is unlikely to break spokes while going down a bumpy road and killing me. The cheap bikes tested by the German Stiftung Warentest did that.

wool_gather 7y ago

I'm not sure what you mean in regards to non-electric bikes. In my experience (living in U.S. cities), there's an extremely wide range that you can spend on a bike, from a hundred or so to extremes of multiple thousands. But you certainly don't need to spend thousands even if it's your daily commuter. One of the keys is that bikes are really really good at being refurbished; an old frame, if it's not in bad shape, can get cleaned and have new parts put on and be literally as good as new. You should have no trouble getting a very reliable, pleasant ride in the sub-$1000 range from your local bike shop. That's certainly far far less than any other form of transport. It's probably even in line with a year's worth of public transit, and will last well more than a year.

rhinoceraptor 7y ago
If you know how to work on bikes, you can find some great ones secondhand. I got my girlfriend and old Bridgestone, and just had to give it a tune up, replace the dry rotted tires and brake pads, new cables and grips, and then put fenders and a rack on it.
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  What you call fenders for _cars_ we in the UK call bumpers; and they're like boat fenders, for allowing vehicles to bump without causing too much damage (they fend off the other vehicle). But your bike fenders appear to be what we call "mud guards" which don't act as "bumpers" at all but instead prevent mud/water from spraying up. Did I get that right, or do the "bike fenders" have some sort of anti bump facet to their design too?
  - rhinoceraptor 7y ago
    Yes, I mean mud guards. On a side note, I really wish there were ones that were easier to install, it took me at least two hours since trimming the mounting wire is so time consuming.

acdha 7y ago

Have they really hit that economy of scale point? It still seems like it’s at the niche point compared to the mature non-assist bike market – like cargo bikes or other not-uncommon but not yet highly-optimized markets. This also matters because some of the components aren’t the same: for example, all of the e-bikes I’ve seen used disc brakes and many had heavier duty drivetrains due to the extra torque, so that part should be expected to be more like a mountain bike than a cheap city bike. As they become more common I’d expect those components to become cheaper with high volume.

rhinoceraptor 7y ago

Bikes are kind of a strange industry, at least in the US. Almost all of the big brands steadfastly refuse to embrace online shopping, so you’re paying at least a hundred or two for brick and mortar bike shops. Second, cycling in the US is mostly for sport, so bike shops mostly sell road or mountain bikes, not utility bikes. And people who ride for sport are willing to spend a lot on this year’s new tech and lighter bikes. If you want a cheap, reliable bike, buy used. Try to find an older chromoly steel mountain bike with name brand components, for example Bridgestone. It will have fender and rack mounts, and clearance for wide tires.

narwally 7y ago
I work as a bike mechanic at one of the largest Specialized dealers in the US. A couple of times a week we have people that come in with bikes they bought from direct to consumer brands and attempted to assemble themselves. People regularly make serious errors when they assemble a bike themselves, and they're often dangerous and sometimes expensive to fix. Unless you're 100% confident in your bike mechanic skills, you'll likely spend all of the money you save buying online at your local bike shop to have them fix your own mistakes.
- rhinoceraptor 7y ago
  There’s always idiots, but there are probably tons of people who have BikesDirect or Canyons and just never go to bike shops because the experience is more often than not bad and/or intimidating. Even with good bike shops, the experience of simple things like buying parts really sucks. I can’t search QBP, I have to ask an employee to do it for me.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 7y ago

A reasonable-quality battery pack for an ebike costs at least $400 at the retail level. That gets you about 600Wh with actual name-brand cells and a BMS that might last a few years or more. Add in a motor, controller, and incidentals, and it's at least a $600 premium for electrification. But most people like mid-drives (torque-sense pedal assist), so it's more like $800. So far, the economics have only hit mid-market. No point in spending over a grand just to get a truly shit Walmart-tier bicycle. Instead, they go to $1,500 and you get something more balanced. Check out Rad-city for economical examples. For conversions, $600 is about the current minimum for a 'reasonable' build. That's a $200 eBay hub-drive kit and a $400 name-brand-cell battery. $500 if you want a better build and individual-fuses on each cell (important for peace-of-mind if you're storing in an attached garage or something). $900 total if you want a decent mid-drive. It will come down, but right now no one is leaving profit on the table. The batteries and electronics simply cost a fair amount.

avar 7y ago
> [...]$600 premium for electrification. But most people like mid-drives (torque-sense pedal assist), so it's more like $800[...] I don't know about the US, but in the EU that "like" is a must-have, your bicycle isn't street-legal as a bicycle unless it's a pedal assist (pedelec). The cheap option of pressing a button to get power makes the bicycle an electric motorcycle or scooter, needing a license, helmet etc. So part of why they're expensive in the EU & other markets is regulatory, a drive train that can smoothly mix motor and pedal input without being clunky is more expensive to make than an electric scooter.
- nbanks 7y ago
  I wonder how if this European study holds true in North America. The US and Canada have a regulation for maximum speed/power, but pedelec is optional. In Canada it's pretty easy to build faster/more powerful e-bikes that break the laws without getting caught, though I'm sure off the shelf bicycles do adhere to the regulations. I ride a conventional racing bike myself, but I like e-bikes because having more cyclists and faster cyclists is a good incentive for making more bike paths.
- 7y ago