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Yesterday I was driving back from Scotland to England, doing 70ish, when we ran into a really heavy thunderstorm. Went from good visibility to almost zero in s

Yesterday I was driving back from Scotland to England, doing 70ish, when we ran into a really heavy thunderstorm. Went from good visibility to almost zero in seconds, and the only thing I could properly see was the crash barrier alongside the lane. I found myself desperately trying to see where the road was, simultaneously trying not to get rear-ended as I slowed up, switch on the rear fog lamps and hazards, max wipers, and select max demist because suddenly the windscreen had fogged up. Was one of those thankfully-rare maximum mental workload moments. Thank god for manual controls and muscle memory. Pretty such I wouldn't have had enough spare attention and/or brainpower left over for operating a touchscreen.

blackflame7000 7y ago
You know, when you take your drivers test in the US, you have to demonstrate your ability to know where all those functions are before you even pull away to start your test.
- vinay427 7y ago
  This depends on the state/region. There's no universal standard in the US, and some states definitely don't require the operation of all of these controls before the test.
  - blackflame7000 7y ago
    Just because it's not on your test doesn't mean you shouldn't know how to operate your car properly. There's a lot not covered in each test that is still a requirement to operate a vehicle. In California, it is a requirement and all the roads are connected. Blaming a change in weather is unsafe. This is why we have so many accidents when it rains. Do you freak out when it gets dark because there are 4 touchscreen buttons to press to turn your lights on? So why when it rains? If you wanna make excuses for "I got myself into a dangerous situation because I wasn't prepared" go ahead but when it endangers other drivers I have to be critical.
    - vinay427 7y ago
      Hmm, this doesn't seem to be a response to what I said. Maybe you accidentally replied to the wrong comment?
      - appleflaxen 7y ago
        > you have to demonstrate your ability to know where all those functions are before you even pull away to start your test if only s/he had to pass the same threshold to post on HN!
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  This was not my experience in New York. You don’t have to demonstrate anything other than knowledge of where the turn signal, ignition, brake and gas pedal are.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- c22 7y ago
  I took a driver's test 3 years ago and this was not included.
- servercobra 7y ago
  Even if that were true everywhere, people drive vehicles other than the one they used for their drivers test in their lifetime.
  - blackflame7000 7y ago
    And just like when they learn to use the shifter, they need to learn what that thing on the other side of the steering wheel does too before driving off whether it's tested or not.
    - macintux 7y ago
      I commend you on your attention to detail under every circumstance, but not everyone masters the windshield defogger (to the point where they don’t have to look at it) the moment they sit down in a rental car.
- acdha 7y ago
  This is like the arguments that C programmers just need to be more careful about errors. We know that people make mistakes, get distracted, and get older. Real engineering is about designing systems which work well in actual conditions, not some unrealistic ideal case assuming perfect conditions. It’s also simply wrong: in California, I had to show use of turn signals – not anything else – and no other place I’ve driven since has ever made me pass a test again. Assuming that everyone reads the manual and practices with every new vehicle is unrealistic, so you’re looking at potentially half-century lags between what’s tested and what people are driving.
  - wbl 7y ago
    I always wondered if Californians know what turn signals are.
    - acdha 7y ago
      About as well as the rest of the country, with the possible exception of Maryland, where they’re used to decoy people by indicating the turn required by the lane you’re in as opposed to the turn three lanes over you’re actually going to make. I actually wonder whether google maps / Waze integration would be a worthwhile improvement: self-driving cars are a good ways off but simply signaling the direction which the driver was just told to turn would be nice, and a majority of drivers seem to be using mapping apps these days.
    - bonestamp2 7y ago
      It is by far the worst state (or province) I've lived in for lack of turn signal usage. I want to get a bumper sticker that says, "Your Turn Signal is Broken".
      - bdowling 7y ago
        How about a bumper sticker that says, "I slow down for stop signs".
- mhandley 7y ago
  The real question, as I found yesterday, is can you switch on high-speed wipers, rear fog lights, hazard lights, and max-demist, in a few seconds, while you're devoting 99% of your brainpower to not crashing into an unseen vehicle slowing in front, not veering out of the lane that you can't really see, and glancing repeatedly in the mirror in case you're about to be rear-ended. The question is not whether you can operate the controls under normal circumstances. It's whether you can do it when task-saturated with more important tasks. Under such circumstances, I simply wouldn't have had any attention left for glancing at a touchscreen, but I did know and could hit all the manual controls rapidly without looking.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
    The answer is you focus on dealing with what's in front of you, so turn on wipers and demist. If all the drivers do that, then no one needs to worry about what's happening behind them. After you take care of being able to see and control the car, then you worry about rear fogs and hazards. And if it's really, really bad, pull over. Don't be like those idiots who decide to stop in the middle of a highway with 75mph traffic around them, under an overpass to protect themselves from a hailstorm.
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
Honest question: Why don't modern cars yet monitor humidity in and outside the car and make the correct decisions to keep your windows clear? Why are we focusing on self-driving cars while our cars are too dumb to do this much on their own?
- liability 7y ago
  Because when the sensor goes screwy I don't want my car to start flipping shit like the defroster on when it's not needed? Because manual controls make such automation totally unnecessary? Because even if the automated system were designed to be "fail safe", the state that's 'safe' is actually context dependent, therefore manual controls will be necessary anyway? It ain't broke, so stop trying to 'fix' it.
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    The problem is the current solution doesn't work. Because trying to perfect those settings manually while driving in near zero visibility is scary and dangerous. And nobody even knows the correct settings to use! There are YouTube videos testing whether cold or warm air is the fastest way to defrost and/or defog your window, because nobody knows or remembers. I honestly don't remember and my solution is "try both for a little bit while maintaining control of the car".
    - liability 7y ago
      Manual works just fine. I just drove clear across the Trans-Canadian Highway, east to west, in a car with manual controls and it all worked great. Your eyes stay on the road because sober people can reach out and grab objects, like knobs or buttons, without looking. If the matter of defrosting confuses you then maybe you should sit down in your car for five minutes and learn how the multi-ton machine works before attempting to operate it; you owe that much to the rest of society. Don't ruin a car just because you are too lazy to work a damn knob. (Warm dry air evaporates water that's condensing on cold surfaces. That's very far from rocket science.)
twic 7y ago
Honest question: why didn't you take the train? This would have been a good time to take another sip of your whisky and soda.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  On Friday this happened https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49300025 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49300025 British trains are very expensive and unreliable at the best of times. Anyone who can drive, does.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Because he didn't know the whether would be like that? And because he already owns a car?
- mhandley 7y ago
  I didn't take the train because I was transporting my son's sailing boat back from a competition. Also the train line was flooded yesterday, so that wouldn't have been an option. But normally that's not a problem, and I agree, if I'm just transporting myself, I do like the train.
- dnh44 7y ago
  In the UK taking a train is often (but not always) more expensive than driving and can take longer too. Depending on the route there might not be a viable service. The service in bad weather isn’t very reliable either. But for some routes it’s really easy and convenient. It just depends on where you are and where you’re going.
tasssko 7y ago
In cases like this I love the radar cruise control in modern cars it very accurately shows what's ahead even when you can't see anything. Agree with your conclusion some of the latest luxury cars have touch screens and the UX is awful.
- GrumpyNl 7y ago
  My radar cruise control, on a Mercedes, fails with heavy rainfall. Warns you to switch to visual control.
  - p2t2p 7y ago
    Eyesight on my Subaru would fail as well. Manual basically says “if you can’t see, that thing can’t see as well”. It uses two cameras after all as well.
yeutterg 7y ago
Rear fog lights: something more cars should have in the US for this exact situation.
- bonestamp2 7y ago
  Or fewer. The only time I ever see them on is when it's a clear night and I'm getting blinded by the person in front of me. That said, they are pretty useful for more than fog... They're good for flashing at people behind you who don't have their headlights on.
  - o-__-o 7y ago
    ...a rear fog light is an additional parking light on the rear driver side of your car to help other cars identify the width of your car in foggy or other incline to weather situations. They are not brighter than any other light that would regularly be present on that car. If it is brighter and blinding as you say, rest assured the car has been illegally modified and is subject to constant harassment by police in all other jurisdictions!
    - saberdancer 7y ago
      In the all cars I've owned, rear fog light is brighter than regular rear lights. Not sure if they are brighter than braking lights, but brighter than "position" lights for sure. https://content.icarcdn.com/styles/article_cover/s3/field/article/cover/2017/rear_fog_merc.jpg?itok=KDx6LmxS https://content.icarcdn.com/styles/article_cover/s3/field/ar... http://www.waycoolinc.com/graphics/z3/03/052503/jt/P5250326.JPG http://www.waycoolinc.com/graphics/z3/03/052503/jt/P5250326....
    - bonestamp2 7y ago
      I've owned three cars with rear fog lights and all of them came from the factory with the rear fog light(s) being brighter than the rear parking lights. That makes sense too -- because if rear parking lights were bright enough for fog then you wouldn't need rear fog lights.
jacobr 7y ago
My Volvo has touch controls for AC but physical buttons for quickly toggling windshield fans/demist. Feels like a decent compromise.

blackflame7000 7y ago

You know, when you take your drivers test in the US, you have to demonstrate your ability to know where all those functions are before you even pull away to start your test.

vinay427 7y ago
This depends on the state/region. There's no universal standard in the US, and some states definitely don't require the operation of all of these controls before the test.
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  Just because it's not on your test doesn't mean you shouldn't know how to operate your car properly. There's a lot not covered in each test that is still a requirement to operate a vehicle. In California, it is a requirement and all the roads are connected. Blaming a change in weather is unsafe. This is why we have so many accidents when it rains. Do you freak out when it gets dark because there are 4 touchscreen buttons to press to turn your lights on? So why when it rains? If you wanna make excuses for "I got myself into a dangerous situation because I wasn't prepared" go ahead but when it endangers other drivers I have to be critical.
  - vinay427 7y ago
    Hmm, this doesn't seem to be a response to what I said. Maybe you accidentally replied to the wrong comment?
    - appleflaxen 7y ago
      > you have to demonstrate your ability to know where all those functions are before you even pull away to start your test if only s/he had to pass the same threshold to post on HN!
bobthepanda 7y ago
This was not my experience in New York. You don’t have to demonstrate anything other than knowledge of where the turn signal, ignition, brake and gas pedal are.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
c22 7y ago
I took a driver's test 3 years ago and this was not included.
servercobra 7y ago
Even if that were true everywhere, people drive vehicles other than the one they used for their drivers test in their lifetime.
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  And just like when they learn to use the shifter, they need to learn what that thing on the other side of the steering wheel does too before driving off whether it's tested or not.
  - macintux 7y ago
    I commend you on your attention to detail under every circumstance, but not everyone masters the windshield defogger (to the point where they don’t have to look at it) the moment they sit down in a rental car.
acdha 7y ago
This is like the arguments that C programmers just need to be more careful about errors. We know that people make mistakes, get distracted, and get older. Real engineering is about designing systems which work well in actual conditions, not some unrealistic ideal case assuming perfect conditions. It’s also simply wrong: in California, I had to show use of turn signals – not anything else – and no other place I’ve driven since has ever made me pass a test again. Assuming that everyone reads the manual and practices with every new vehicle is unrealistic, so you’re looking at potentially half-century lags between what’s tested and what people are driving.
- wbl 7y ago
  I always wondered if Californians know what turn signals are.
  - acdha 7y ago
    About as well as the rest of the country, with the possible exception of Maryland, where they’re used to decoy people by indicating the turn required by the lane you’re in as opposed to the turn three lanes over you’re actually going to make. I actually wonder whether google maps / Waze integration would be a worthwhile improvement: self-driving cars are a good ways off but simply signaling the direction which the driver was just told to turn would be nice, and a majority of drivers seem to be using mapping apps these days.
  - bonestamp2 7y ago
    It is by far the worst state (or province) I've lived in for lack of turn signal usage. I want to get a bumper sticker that says, "Your Turn Signal is Broken".
    - bdowling 7y ago
      How about a bumper sticker that says, "I slow down for stop signs".
mhandley 7y ago
The real question, as I found yesterday, is can you switch on high-speed wipers, rear fog lights, hazard lights, and max-demist, in a few seconds, while you're devoting 99% of your brainpower to not crashing into an unseen vehicle slowing in front, not veering out of the lane that you can't really see, and glancing repeatedly in the mirror in case you're about to be rear-ended. The question is not whether you can operate the controls under normal circumstances. It's whether you can do it when task-saturated with more important tasks. Under such circumstances, I simply wouldn't have had any attention left for glancing at a touchscreen, but I did know and could hit all the manual controls rapidly without looking.
- HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
  The answer is you focus on dealing with what's in front of you, so turn on wipers and demist. If all the drivers do that, then no one needs to worry about what's happening behind them. After you take care of being able to see and control the car, then you worry about rear fogs and hazards. And if it's really, really bad, pull over. Don't be like those idiots who decide to stop in the middle of a highway with 75mph traffic around them, under an overpass to protect themselves from a hailstorm.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

Honest question: Why don't modern cars yet monitor humidity in and outside the car and make the correct decisions to keep your windows clear? Why are we focusing on self-driving cars while our cars are too dumb to do this much on their own?

liability 7y ago
Because when the sensor goes screwy I don't want my car to start flipping shit like the defroster on when it's not needed? Because manual controls make such automation totally unnecessary? Because even if the automated system were designed to be "fail safe", the state that's 'safe' is actually context dependent, therefore manual controls will be necessary anyway? It ain't broke, so stop trying to 'fix' it.
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  The problem is the current solution doesn't work. Because trying to perfect those settings manually while driving in near zero visibility is scary and dangerous. And nobody even knows the correct settings to use! There are YouTube videos testing whether cold or warm air is the fastest way to defrost and/or defog your window, because nobody knows or remembers. I honestly don't remember and my solution is "try both for a little bit while maintaining control of the car".
  - liability 7y ago
    Manual works just fine. I just drove clear across the Trans-Canadian Highway, east to west, in a car with manual controls and it all worked great. Your eyes stay on the road because sober people can reach out and grab objects, like knobs or buttons, without looking. If the matter of defrosting confuses you then maybe you should sit down in your car for five minutes and learn how the multi-ton machine works before attempting to operate it; you owe that much to the rest of society. Don't ruin a car just because you are too lazy to work a damn knob. (Warm dry air evaporates water that's condensing on cold surfaces. That's very far from rocket science.)

twic 7y ago

Honest question: why didn't you take the train? This would have been a good time to take another sip of your whisky and soda.

goatinaboat 7y ago
On Friday this happened https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49300025 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49300025 British trains are very expensive and unreliable at the best of times. Anyone who can drive, does.
coldtea 7y ago
Because he didn't know the whether would be like that? And because he already owns a car?
mhandley 7y ago
I didn't take the train because I was transporting my son's sailing boat back from a competition. Also the train line was flooded yesterday, so that wouldn't have been an option. But normally that's not a problem, and I agree, if I'm just transporting myself, I do like the train.
dnh44 7y ago
In the UK taking a train is often (but not always) more expensive than driving and can take longer too. Depending on the route there might not be a viable service. The service in bad weather isn’t very reliable either. But for some routes it’s really easy and convenient. It just depends on where you are and where you’re going.

tasssko 7y ago

In cases like this I love the radar cruise control in modern cars it very accurately shows what's ahead even when you can't see anything. Agree with your conclusion some of the latest luxury cars have touch screens and the UX is awful.

GrumpyNl 7y ago
My radar cruise control, on a Mercedes, fails with heavy rainfall. Warns you to switch to visual control.
- p2t2p 7y ago
  Eyesight on my Subaru would fail as well. Manual basically says “if you can’t see, that thing can’t see as well”. It uses two cameras after all as well.

yeutterg 7y ago

Rear fog lights: something more cars should have in the US for this exact situation.

bonestamp2 7y ago
Or fewer. The only time I ever see them on is when it's a clear night and I'm getting blinded by the person in front of me. That said, they are pretty useful for more than fog... They're good for flashing at people behind you who don't have their headlights on.
- o-__-o 7y ago
  ...a rear fog light is an additional parking light on the rear driver side of your car to help other cars identify the width of your car in foggy or other incline to weather situations. They are not brighter than any other light that would regularly be present on that car. If it is brighter and blinding as you say, rest assured the car has been illegally modified and is subject to constant harassment by police in all other jurisdictions!
  - saberdancer 7y ago
    In the all cars I've owned, rear fog light is brighter than regular rear lights. Not sure if they are brighter than braking lights, but brighter than "position" lights for sure. https://content.icarcdn.com/styles/article_cover/s3/field/article/cover/2017/rear_fog_merc.jpg?itok=KDx6LmxS https://content.icarcdn.com/styles/article_cover/s3/field/ar... http://www.waycoolinc.com/graphics/z3/03/052503/jt/P5250326.JPG http://www.waycoolinc.com/graphics/z3/03/052503/jt/P5250326....
  - bonestamp2 7y ago
    I've owned three cars with rear fog lights and all of them came from the factory with the rear fog light(s) being brighter than the rear parking lights. That makes sense too -- because if rear parking lights were bright enough for fog then you wouldn't need rear fog lights.

jacobr 7y ago

My Volvo has touch controls for AC but physical buttons for quickly toggling windshield fans/demist. Feels like a decent compromise.