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I have to agree with guelo. The services you describe are unadvertised for a reason. You're effectively asking someone from a lower class to possibly break the

I have to agree with guelo. The services you describe are unadvertised for a reason. You're effectively asking someone from a lower class to possibly break the law (by getting paid under the table, and presumably not reporting the additional income) and possibly get into trouble with their employer because they want your extra money. If that's not a class issue, what is?

sp332 16y ago
Of course they report it, there's a spot on the tax return for "tips" specifically.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >Of course they report it, there's a spot on the tax return for "tips" specifically. And there's a sign at the side of the road with the speed limit ...
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- steveklabnik 16y ago
  hahahahahahahahaha. ha. (No, seriously, I've worked in jobs where it's socially acceptable to get tipped. Unless you're a waitress that makes less than a minimum wage, nobody reports tips.)
  - detst 16y ago
    True but that doesn't make this statement from the GP any less ridiculous: "You're effectively asking someone from a lower class to possibly break the law". I know of waiters/waitresses that don't report all of their tips. Do we now say that tipping them is asking them to break the law? Of course not because that's their responsibility, not your's or mine. We're certainly not stopping them.
    - steveklabnik 16y ago
      I think that's kinda silly too, but "getting in trouble with their employer" is 100% legitimate. His overall point still stands.
      - thebooktocome 16y ago
        I accidentally conflated tipping and bribing. I feel tipping is acceptable in certain narrowly defined and publicly acknowledged circumstances, whereas bribing is almost always wrong. I also feel there isn't a sharp distinction between the two.
      - detst 16y ago
        I mostly disagree there too (at least in the US). Tipping is so ingrained in American culture that I don't think you can put the burden on the tipper to know that doing so can get someone in trouble with their employer. Just as it's their responsibility to report the income, it's their responsibility to inform the tipper that they cannot accept and, if they want to explain, tell them that it could get them in trouble. Persistence with that knowledge is unacceptable but that's another matter.
khafra 16y ago
Every scenario he described involves people who already make money from tips. If they underreport their tips, that's their own issue. I've read experimental reports from people attempting to bypass social conventions by means of $20 bills, and it only works when the bribee's job and legal status are not on the line. I'm guessing that bypassing social conventions is where most of the outrage comes from. Queueing etiquette is something sacred; defectors face strong social punishment. Seems wrong to have someone taking something that's yours--your place in line--simply by having more money. But queueing is just a non-monetary rationing system for a slightly scarce resource that most people don't care enough to pay for. It'd be fairer if everyone waiting participated in an auction for places in line, and the proceeds were distributed evenly, but unless you care enough to set that system up I think the moral outrage against people who buy the front position directly from the coordinator(s) of the queue is misplaced.
- SimonPStevens 16y ago
  To cite one example, the Alton Towers theme park in the UK has a ticketing system that allows you to pay more for "fast track" tickets. Fast track tickets allow you to join a separate queue. The number of fast track tickets available are limited so the queues remain very short, and actual boarding of each ride is controlled so it is never dominated by fast track ticket holders. The fast track ticket prices vary depending on which rides they are usable on, and how many times you can re-use them. The system seems to work very well. Those who assign a high value to getting on every ride can opt to pay the extra for a more intense day. Those who are happy with the slow pace of a day out with some queueing can still afford the regular priced tickets. There doesn't seem to be any moral or social stigma attached to those using the fast track system, but I think part of the reason is that it is perceived as fair, and everyone has the option to participate if they choose.
  - gnosis 16y ago
    "it is perceived as fair, and everyone has the option to participate if they choose." But why doesn't everyone choose to do so? After all, it would mean a shorter wait, and who wouldn't want that? Could it be that not everyone can afford to use the system? Is this really fair? And how do you know that it's "perceived as fair"? By whom? How many people who are waiting in the slow line have you surveyed?

sp332 16y ago

Of course they report it, there's a spot on the tax return for "tips" specifically.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago
>Of course they report it, there's a spot on the tax return for "tips" specifically. And there's a sign at the side of the road with the speed limit ...
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
steveklabnik 16y ago
hahahahahahahahaha. ha. (No, seriously, I've worked in jobs where it's socially acceptable to get tipped. Unless you're a waitress that makes less than a minimum wage, nobody reports tips.)
- detst 16y ago
  True but that doesn't make this statement from the GP any less ridiculous: "You're effectively asking someone from a lower class to possibly break the law". I know of waiters/waitresses that don't report all of their tips. Do we now say that tipping them is asking them to break the law? Of course not because that's their responsibility, not your's or mine. We're certainly not stopping them.
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    I think that's kinda silly too, but "getting in trouble with their employer" is 100% legitimate. His overall point still stands.
    - thebooktocome 16y ago
      I accidentally conflated tipping and bribing. I feel tipping is acceptable in certain narrowly defined and publicly acknowledged circumstances, whereas bribing is almost always wrong. I also feel there isn't a sharp distinction between the two.
    - detst 16y ago
      I mostly disagree there too (at least in the US). Tipping is so ingrained in American culture that I don't think you can put the burden on the tipper to know that doing so can get someone in trouble with their employer. Just as it's their responsibility to report the income, it's their responsibility to inform the tipper that they cannot accept and, if they want to explain, tell them that it could get them in trouble. Persistence with that knowledge is unacceptable but that's another matter.

khafra 16y ago

Every scenario he described involves people who already make money from tips. If they underreport their tips, that's their own issue. I've read experimental reports from people attempting to bypass social conventions by means of $20 bills, and it only works when the bribee's job and legal status are not on the line. I'm guessing that bypassing social conventions is where most of the outrage comes from. Queueing etiquette is something sacred; defectors face strong social punishment. Seems wrong to have someone taking something that's yours--your place in line--simply by having more money. But queueing is just a non-monetary rationing system for a slightly scarce resource that most people don't care enough to pay for. It'd be fairer if everyone waiting participated in an auction for places in line, and the proceeds were distributed evenly, but unless you care enough to set that system up I think the moral outrage against people who buy the front position directly from the coordinator(s) of the queue is misplaced.

SimonPStevens 16y ago
To cite one example, the Alton Towers theme park in the UK has a ticketing system that allows you to pay more for "fast track" tickets. Fast track tickets allow you to join a separate queue. The number of fast track tickets available are limited so the queues remain very short, and actual boarding of each ride is controlled so it is never dominated by fast track ticket holders. The fast track ticket prices vary depending on which rides they are usable on, and how many times you can re-use them. The system seems to work very well. Those who assign a high value to getting on every ride can opt to pay the extra for a more intense day. Those who are happy with the slow pace of a day out with some queueing can still afford the regular priced tickets. There doesn't seem to be any moral or social stigma attached to those using the fast track system, but I think part of the reason is that it is perceived as fair, and everyone has the option to participate if they choose.
- gnosis 16y ago
  "it is perceived as fair, and everyone has the option to participate if they choose." But why doesn't everyone choose to do so? After all, it would mean a shorter wait, and who wouldn't want that? Could it be that not everyone can afford to use the system? Is this really fair? And how do you know that it's "perceived as fair"? By whom? How many people who are waiting in the slow line have you surveyed?