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> There’s nothing in the documentation to indicate what criteria the the HPPD would use, or is currently using, to add a face, license plate, or smartphones to

• RobertRoberts 7y ago
  You are strongly implying racism with this cop, is it possible he just understands basic statistics? If he followed a car with 2 Chinese/Mexicans/etc... in it, would he have the same results? Using statistics, what would a robot do?
  • mikeyouse 7y ago
    This is a terrible excuse and violates many, many civil protections that we ostensibly have.
    • RobertRoberts 7y ago
      I am not suggesting he is correct, I am simply pointing out that if your job is to arrest people with outstanding warrants, how would you go about it? (again, if you were a robot) Can a robot be racist?
      • mikeyouse 7y ago
        Gross. God that New Yorker article was onto something.
      • JeremyBanks 7y ago
        It sure sounds like it, RobotRoberts.
      • inetknght 7y ago
        > if your job is to arrest people with outstanding warrants, how would you go about it? How about: go to their place of residence and knock on their door? Or: go to their place of work and knock on the door? After those have failed, try getting a wiretap warrant for their telecom devices. Only after you've got that wiretap warrant, locate them and arrest there. You know... the stuff that law enforcement is _supposed_ to be doing... Following a vehicle whose license plate, or its owner, is associated with outstanding crimes makes sense. Following a random vehicle which has not yet committed a crime is wrong. Following a vehicle because it has black people in it is illegal, unethical, and racist. Following a vehicle because an occupant shows up on a face search database should be morally reprehensible for the very same reasons.
        • RobertRoberts 7y ago
          Robots will do all those things you suggest simultaneously, and watch every street with cameras, scan faces at every store, pull over cars remotely, turn off your power in your house, get your fired from your job, etc... This is better than racist cops? By being outraged at one cop's admission of a short cut to finding people who are due in court we are bringing the abomination of robots down on our heads.
          • inetknght 7y ago
            > Robots will do all those things you suggest simultaneously, and And... humanity needs to have a serious discussion about the merits and risks of all of that before we rush to deploy AI.
          • anigbrowl 7y ago
            This is a really lame argument you're making, and your trolly style isn't helping you.
            • coupdetaco 7y ago
              Is it moral to push the fat guy off the bridge to stop a trolly a save a crowd of people?
      • jedberg 7y ago
        > Can a robot be racist? Yes, it most certainly can. It can use the same priors that people use to be racist. In fact, it usually amplifies the racism of its training data.
        • runlevel1 7y ago
          Can, and has. [^1] These are the documented instances, but it can be difficult to determine when such systems are being used in the first place: Muckrock and Rutgers have been asking governing bodies (via FOIA) whether they're using automated decision-making systems and, if so, how. Many reject their request. [^2] The practice of "parallel construction" could further conceal their use. [1]: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2166207-discriminating-algorithms-5-times-ai-showed-prejudice/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2166207-discriminating-... [2]: https://www.muckrock.com/foi/list/?projects=84 https://www.muckrock.com/foi/list/?projects=84
  • rootusrootus 7y ago
    Knowing statistics wouldn't make it any better, it is appalling behavior.
    • RobertRoberts 7y ago
      I think we are debating two different things. I don't support his behavior. But if it was a robot, it wouldn't be racist or appalling, but it seems to be that if a human does it is considered racist. Recording faces and license plates and reporting on data found can't be racist, it is purely neutral. Which is why I think the robot in the story has this job. I suppose we could blame the programmer or admin if it's designed or configured to go after a particular race. But even a robot can only arrest so many people in a day, and if you optimize an algorithm based on AI (also robot running on data), would it ultimately look like this officer's choices?
      • pjc50 7y ago
        No, it's still racist if it is discriminatory in effect. > Recording faces and license plates and reporting on data found can't be racist, it is purely The use of Hollerith machines in processing census data to feed the Nazi extermination program was definitely racist.
      • inetknght 7y ago
        > But if it was a robot, it wouldn't be racist or appalling, but it seems to be that if a human does it is considered racist. Where is this said?
        • RobertRoberts 7y ago
          To quote the movie Short Circuit "Robots don't think, they just run programs". If the software is racist, then the robot is, if the software is not racist, neither is the robot. Therefore, robots cannot be racist. Only programmers can be racist. (which are people)
      • rootusrootus 7y ago
        I am comfortable saying the algorithm could be made neutral, but I expect it would be extremely difficult to feed it neutral data. Most of what we have now is already heavily skewed because of human involvement. Perhaps starting from scratch, a place of zero knowledge, with absolutely no input allowed from humans. But even then, I would not accept following two random people around based on skin color and waiting for them to make a trivial mistake that justifies deeper investigation, regardless of what any data might say.
  • logfromblammo 7y ago
    Do not give a Chicago cop the benefit of the doubt. Using statistics, a robot would say that the entire CPD is racist. And then it would be taken to Homan Square and beaten until it confessed, while the union rep held a press conference explaining both the robot's extensive criminal history, and the officers' understandable caution in apprehending and controlling such a dangerous individual.
  • JasonFruit 7y ago
    "What would a robot do?" should not be our ethical solution-finder, as evidenced by Google's customer service, Amazon's product recommendations, and Boeing's equilibrium.
    • RobertRoberts 7y ago
      I am not even remotely suggesting we use robots as any sort of guide post for ethics. I agree, that these things end up bad, but that is my point. If it's a robot we _should_ be equally outraged, but it's actually not possible unless the robot is _designed_ to be racist. This is the real concern, humans will be replaced by robots because outrage will simply have less impact. And therefore because we couldn't stomach humans being racist (or whatever the answer is here?) we have to live with robots doing whatever they are designed to do, without any recourse. The unbalanced outrage will lead to an army of robots running our legal system.
      • IHLayman 7y ago
        “If it's a robot we _should_ be equally outraged, but it's actually not possible unless the robot is _designed_ to be racist.” https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/24/11297050/tay-microsoft-chatbot-racist https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/24/11297050/tay-microsoft-ch... only took 24 hours.
        • RobertRoberts 7y ago
          They didn't intend for it to be racist, that is the difference. A few racist cops, or all racist robots, that is our choices, and it looks like we will be getting robots because of the outrage over a few people.
  • dguaraglia 7y ago
    Guess what: if every cop is going around doing mental statistics about who is 'more likely' to make a mistake, they'll introduce bias because they are biasing their sampling with their pre-conceived notions. If you spend your whole day chasing black people and white people get no oversight, then of course you'll be introducing bias. So whether this cop was being overtly racist or not, he was perpetuating an inherently racist system.
  • scarejunba 7y ago
    Haha yeah, probably, because people make all sorts of mistakes every day. I see people going through stop signs all the time, for instance.
  • BubRoss 7y ago
    Of he understood basic statistics he would have controlled for age, sex, neighborhood and car type.
  • anigbrowl 7y ago
    If I see a car with two cops in it, I just follow them and pretty soon one of them will do something racist.
• Ididntdothis 7y ago
  That’s the problem with ML and statistics. With the wrong input they quickly turn into something that constantly reinforces the status quo. It’s a dangerous path if not handled carefully. You can see this even in advertising. All the ads I am being shown are about stuff I have bought or was interested in. They can’t give me new ideas or handle when my tastes have changed.
  • throwaway2048 7y ago
    Yep, a related question you might ask is: Would machine learning end slavery, or perpetuate and strengthen it, assuming it existed today as an accepted mass societal institution. Consider it would likely be wealthy slaveholders that would aggressively deploy it first, being as they hold most of the capital, and have the most to gain from it. I think people should consider the answer to that question very seriously.
• discardable_dan 7y ago
  This is sinister in a subtle way: profiling in this capacity is not only wrong, it is self-perpetuating. If police are trained to do this, then more African Americans are arrested even without warrants, and then end up in the system / in legal trouble, which means more are likely to have warrants. In turn, this means that future police trained to do this are likely to find success doing it by virtue of past police doing it. That's... totally fucked.
  • throwaway2048 7y ago
    Thing is, you don't even need overly racist whoever for this to happen, a completely "neutral" neural net would happy take the same stroll down that particular primrose path without tightly controlling for self-reinforcing effects like this.
    • justinjlynn 7y ago
      Evolutionary systems are very good at perverting any and all definable fitness functions - it's a red queen's race. At best, if you want systems to behave you either have to supervise them all the time or have a system which can which itself must be supervised less often. While we want human morals and ethics to be a part of our systems, humans will forever need to remain in the loop.
      • marvin 7y ago
        It’s fascinating to see that we’re _already_ at a point where the AI alignment problem («what morality do we want our automated systems to have») is becoming a practical reality, long before AGI or self-improving AI appears to be imminent. I think this is a clear, contempirary demonstration that philosophizing around the use of AI (even today) has practical benefits beyond the practice of philosophy as an inherently worthwhile species-wide intellectual pursuit.
        • jacobolus 7y ago
          > AI alignment problem This is a problem as old as civilization. Bureaucratic procedure (of governments, religious organizations, corporations, armies, NGOs, ...) always leads to bad outcomes in edge cases if individual administrators are not given enough autonomy to make exceptions and enough oversight/accountability to prevent abuse.
• bko 7y ago
  From your story it seems like human guards are profiling African Americans and Latinos now. At least with a bot you'd be able to explicitly prevent them from doing so. Probably a lot harder to prevent a human from using biases
  • ceejayoz 7y ago
    > At least with a bot you'd be able to explicitly prevent them from doing so. Not really. They're really good at finding a proxy for the banned characteristic.
  • closeparen 7y ago
    Machine learning - using statistical associations between features in a large population to make predictions about individuals - is profiling. There is no such thing as removing profiling from machine learning. The profiling is the only thing there.