13 ms·
> frontier justice came for McElroy courtesy of the residents of Skidmore (population 440 at the time of the crime). Shaken by the man’s ability to evade jail e
by dwheeler 7y ago
> frontier justice came for McElroy courtesy of the residents of Skidmore (population 440 at the time of the crime). Shaken by the man’s ability to evade jail even after being convicted of a near-fatal attack on a grocery store owner... Belkin also details Skidmore’s plague of subsequent violence ... the series persuasively contends that these crimes indicate that the McElroy episode taught younger Skidmore generations that doing as they savagely pleased was OK—and that they could get away with it, because their friends and neighbors wouldn’t speak out against them.
I'm not persuaded, at least by this text. Another possible interpretation is that the legal system around Skidmore was completely unable to convict a repeat violent offender (McElroy), leading to a widespread (correct) belief that the legal system would not also provide any kind of useful restraint to future offenders. Indeed, that interpretation seems more likely to me.
That doesn't make the actions acceptable, of course. But it does put a spotlight on the importance of having a working legal system that provides some reasonable level of protection to the larger community.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ProAm 7y ago> That doesn't make the actions acceptable, of course. But it does put a spotlight on the importance of having a working legal system that provides some reasonable level of protection to the larger community. This man was tried and convicted by a jury of his peers, it was just in a different courtroom.
- ceejayoz 7y agoThe Constitution provides for an impartial jury, along with other important factors. A lynch mob is no such thing.
- rocqua 7y agoHow many of the mob were directly impacted by the bully? I could imagine having witnessed the bully be a bully, not being a victim, and still deciding the bully needs to die. The decision can be made not based on the desire to defend yourself, and instead based on the desire to defend others / the desire to prevent unjust behavior.
- jgwil2 7y agoThat's the kind of logic used to justify lynchings. We have a legal system that enforces a certain burden of proof, that takes place in a courtroom where strict procedure is enforced by an ostensibly impartial judge, and evidence is weighed by an impartial jury. The system is carefully set up to balance the rights of the accused against the interests of the community. It may not work all the time, but it exists for a very good reason, and mob justice is no substitute.
- ProAm 7y agoI know on paper that is how it's supposed to happen but if we are honest it doesn't always happen that way.
- AndrewBissell 7y agoWhen the legal system is perverted by local corruption and nepotism, allowing bad actors to run roughshod over their victims, are they supposed to just lie down and take it out of dedication to an abstract principle which has been wholly betrayed in practice?
- MFLoon 7y agoI mean, they should not just lie down, but I think the more lawful and orderly approach would be to appeal to a higher tier of authority that's supposed to be available within the legal system. Of course, easier said than done, but still I think that's what the "right thing" would have been.
- inscionent 7y agoThis was a mob execution.
- r00fus 7y agoA jury that is inconsistent and hard to rouse. The subsequent crimes show the criminals their understanding of the broken justice system
- jcims 7y agoThis is my prevailing theory as to why minority enclaves in metropolitan areas tend to have higher violent crime. It's not socioeconomic as much as it is folks being forced to mete out justice on their own.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Stronico 7y agoThe book Ghettoside by Jill Leovy goes into that in quite a bit of detail. Her conclusion - yes, very much, with a strong overlap between community and extended family. An excellent book.
- Retric 7y agoAlternatively, crimes are more common in metropolitan areas due to increased contact. Crimes are also more likely to be reported in poor metropolitan areas. Poor minorities are more like to stay in metropolitan areas. Resulting in a rather insidious bias that's hard to adjust for. http://www.hngn.com/articles/75816/20150309/dea-was-told-not-to-enforce-drug-laws-in-rich-white-areas-claims-former-agent.htm http://www.hngn.com/articles/75816/20150309/dea-was-told-not... PS: It is also easier to hide a body in the country, so missing persons can hide many murders.
- jacobolus 7y ago> crimes are more common in metropolitan areas due to increased contact Is there evidence for this contact theory? It doesn’t match my understanding of crime patterns. For example there are many very dense cities around the world without much crime, and some sparsely populated rural areas with lots of crime. A Google search turns up http://science.time.com/2013/07/23/in-town-versus-country-it-turns-out-that-cities-are-the-safest-places-to-live/ http://science.time.com/2013/07/23/in-town-versus-country-it... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/big-city-crime-murder-rates-are-higher-in-rural-canada-1.1204349 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/big-city-crime-murder-rates-a... https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/01/are-big-cities-more-dangerous-small-ones/ https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/01/are-big-citie...
- tootie 7y agoThe fact that the Sheriff was involved in the conspiracy is fishy.
- saidajigumi 7y agoOr completely expected, if the broader narrative of a legal system that has ceded to lawlessness is true. Law enforcement is on the literal front-lines in dealing with violent repeat offenders as described here.
- whenanother 7y agothis is promoting a logical fallacy in the belief that there exist a perfect system. this is the same argument that many who are trying to deregulate the government have with the ultimate intention of privatizing everything.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- tomc1985 7y agoI'm with the mob on this one. As another comment put it, he was tried by a jury of his peers... if the justice system cannot help you then you have to take things into your own hands. Might be hard for all us city slickers on HN to fathom, particularly when these sorts of country towns are frequently mocked or derided by people like us.
- wallace_f 7y agoWhile this case looks to be justice, I have the fortune of experiencing real-life extreme bullying, stalking and ill will for no other reason than profit incentive and having been abused in the first place. Sometimes this sounds crazy to people and it would to me, but I think everyone sees this in school growing up, and history is all about it if you stop and think about it. I've seen examples of it, too, all the time in my life. I'd be weary of promoting justice being taken "into their own hands." But these problems are indeed very challenging, especially in a world where merit and virtue are not necessary, and even are deleterious, to your group's survival.
- mcphage 7y ago> particularly when these sorts of country towns are frequently mocked or derided by people like us You bring up a good point, because that's another thing these country towns are known for—having a lot of respect for big cities and the people that live in them.
- tomc1985 7y agoThe feelings of contempt are mutual, which is fucking stupid.
- mcphage 7y agoThey are mutual, and it is stupid, but one of them is the subject of a thousand think pieces, and the other is, what, just treated like a fact of life? Have you ever read anything saying "hey country folk, maybe you shouldn't hate the people in the cities so much"?
- 7y ago
- fortran77 7y agoIt also seems that this is a little bit different from usual "lynch mobs" or vigilante justice because it was an act of self-defense. This man was going around shooting people and was actively making threats (though not at the exact moment he was shot). This makes it a little more morally justified than shooting someone who committed some real or perceived wrong, but isn't a current threat to others. They stopped him because he was dangerous.
- philwelch 7y agoI think I’ve heard stories of eg battered wives killing their husbands and then claiming self-defense because they reasonably feared for their lives (and perhaps their children’s lives) in the long run.