6 ms·

My late brother used to talk about an area outside Glasgow called Springburn and how it is consistently listed as one of the poorest/deprived places in Europe (

My late brother used to talk about an area outside Glasgow called Springburn and how it is consistently listed as one of the poorest/deprived places in Europe (not sure if that was the correct term but it gets the point across). Yet each election term they voted in either the same politicians or politicians with the same manifestos. Nothing will change!

wallace_f 7y ago
I think we deserve it. 70,000 yearly people die from Big Pharma's opioid crisis in the US, Jeff Bezos and his companies barely pay taxes and his newspapers run non-stop spam about how we should disarm the peasants because 20-100 per year die in mass shootings, and people actually agree with it. Face it, we're opiated masses of worthless idiots.
- anm89 7y ago
  This is just a list of unrelated facts. Totally incoherent.
  - otabdeveloper4 7y ago
    It was crystal-clear to me. Maybe your judgement is clouded because of bias?
    - krageon 7y ago
      The bias that the only country that has regular large-scale shootings also makes it easy for it's citizens to buy guns! And then there were a bunch of other facts not at all related to guns that have no bearing on it, culminating in an ill-advised moralising conclusion that it (it being a lot of deaths and what I have to assume is bad policy) is deserved because of all those things.
      - wallace_f 7y ago
        The point was intended to be general, that average people are not rational, nor even moral, using an exceptionally lopsided comparison where reason and human life stands on one side, and emotion and propaganda on the other. Emotion and propaganda wins, obviously. Probably every generation in history looks back in time at every other generation and has no hesitation in coming to this conclusion. It is only with our current generation that our cognitive biases and emotional nature tell us to believe otherwise.
- pjc50 7y ago
  This thread is about Scotland, pal.
matthewmacleod 7y ago
Well, it's more complex than that. In a country that has for many years only had a broadly two-party system, there was little effect to be had by voting for someone else. And given Glasgow's historical politics, that was always going to be the lefty party. Things have changed, though. The devolved Scottish Parliament has now been in operation for 20 years; in Westminster, Glasgow North-East (which is the parliamentary constituency covering Springburn) was in 2015 one of the constituencies that saw its vote swing massively behind the pro-Scottish-independence party that was traditionally unpopular in UK-wide elections, though they narrowly lost that seat in the unexpected 2017 election. And this is the reason it is important – drugs policy is reserved to the UK government, and there's a fair bit of chat about it now.
- _Understated_ 7y ago
  My issue with drug policy revolves around two key points: 1. The war on drugs is an utter failure (by that I mean, it hasn't halted drug use but there are likely those in power who benefit from this) 2. None of their policies tackles root causes, e.g. putting ex-drug users back into their old habitats will likely guarantee they'll just do it again. I'm from Glasgow (Kirkintilloch), live in Ayrshire now, and I saw it first hand: I had two friends die of OD's years ago. I only visit Glasgow city centre on occasion and each time I do it appears to get worse but I live near Irvine now and you can tell a mile away who's had their methodone so it's no better down here.
  - daedalus_f 7y ago
    While I don't think it’s a cure all, Portugal seems to have had significant improvements in drug related health problems (at least in the short term), crime and anti-social behavior after radical decriminalization in 2001. But sounding tough on drugs is too tempting for politicians, and most of the press screams at any sign of decriminalization. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...
  - kuniva 7y ago
    I always find that weird, people from places way far out claiming Glasgow. We never did that in Paisley, we always said Paisley. I'm almost sure I've heard people from Wishaw, and even Shotts claiming they're from Glasgow. Overspill identity crisis or what.
daleharvey 7y ago
Paul Sweeney is one of the last remaining Labour MP's in Scotland, its very unlikely he will survive the next election. the MSP's are majority SNP now as has Glasgow Council recently been replaced by the SNP. I see the drug problem in described first hand, I live in Glasgow city center and if our tenement flat door is opened at night in the morning I will be stepping over users and needles on the stairs. However things are changing, the SNP are pushing for drug consumption rooms, currently being blocked by the UK GOV, but they are under increased pressure and will either buckle or independence will make it a non issue, as well as general city wide improvements, better policing + rehabilitation, reducing of shorter sentences etc.
smcl 7y ago
Arethuza posted a link to map visualisation of data on various factors around deprivation in Scotland. Here is Springburn on that map in case you are curious: https://simd.scot/2016/#/simd2016/BTTTTTT/14/-4.2336/55.8776/ https://simd.scot/2016/#/simd2016/BTTTTTT/14/-4.2336/55.8776...
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Its Scotland :-) when Donald Dewar died suddenly (senior Labour MP) the was no question that his agent (who I know) wouldn't be the next MP. Made a change to have an MP who had done a non political job for 20 years plus before becoming an MP.
GordonS 7y ago
> Yet each election term they voted in either the same politicians or politicians with the same manifestos There is a large cross-section of the population that vote for Labour irregardless of, well, anything. Generations have voted for Labour because their parents, grandparents and great great grandparents did, and because they believe Labour stands for working class people and values - all the while without once considering what their policies or values actually are, or indeed those of the opposing parties. This cross-section also firmly believes the Conservatives are 'rich toffs' trying to screw over the working classes, and the Liberal Democrats are 'liberal lefties' (and of course we can't have that!) Will the dogma ever end? The tabloid press, and indeed sometimes Labour politicians, continue their poisonous to stoking of the flames, and people just nod their heads. Politics in the UK really is a terrible mess.

wallace_f 7y ago

I think we deserve it. 70,000 yearly people die from Big Pharma's opioid crisis in the US, Jeff Bezos and his companies barely pay taxes and his newspapers run non-stop spam about how we should disarm the peasants because 20-100 per year die in mass shootings, and people actually agree with it. Face it, we're opiated masses of worthless idiots.

anm89 7y ago
This is just a list of unrelated facts. Totally incoherent.
- otabdeveloper4 7y ago
  It was crystal-clear to me. Maybe your judgement is clouded because of bias?
  - krageon 7y ago
    The bias that the only country that has regular large-scale shootings also makes it easy for it's citizens to buy guns! And then there were a bunch of other facts not at all related to guns that have no bearing on it, culminating in an ill-advised moralising conclusion that it (it being a lot of deaths and what I have to assume is bad policy) is deserved because of all those things.
    - wallace_f 7y ago
      The point was intended to be general, that average people are not rational, nor even moral, using an exceptionally lopsided comparison where reason and human life stands on one side, and emotion and propaganda on the other. Emotion and propaganda wins, obviously. Probably every generation in history looks back in time at every other generation and has no hesitation in coming to this conclusion. It is only with our current generation that our cognitive biases and emotional nature tell us to believe otherwise.
pjc50 7y ago
This thread is about Scotland, pal.

matthewmacleod 7y ago

Well, it's more complex than that. In a country that has for many years only had a broadly two-party system, there was little effect to be had by voting for someone else. And given Glasgow's historical politics, that was always going to be the lefty party. Things have changed, though. The devolved Scottish Parliament has now been in operation for 20 years; in Westminster, Glasgow North-East (which is the parliamentary constituency covering Springburn) was in 2015 one of the constituencies that saw its vote swing massively behind the pro-Scottish-independence party that was traditionally unpopular in UK-wide elections, though they narrowly lost that seat in the unexpected 2017 election. And this is the reason it is important – drugs policy is reserved to the UK government, and there's a fair bit of chat about it now.

_Understated_ 7y ago
My issue with drug policy revolves around two key points: 1. The war on drugs is an utter failure (by that I mean, it hasn't halted drug use but there are likely those in power who benefit from this) 2. None of their policies tackles root causes, e.g. putting ex-drug users back into their old habitats will likely guarantee they'll just do it again. I'm from Glasgow (Kirkintilloch), live in Ayrshire now, and I saw it first hand: I had two friends die of OD's years ago. I only visit Glasgow city centre on occasion and each time I do it appears to get worse but I live near Irvine now and you can tell a mile away who's had their methodone so it's no better down here.
- daedalus_f 7y ago
  While I don't think it’s a cure all, Portugal seems to have had significant improvements in drug related health problems (at least in the short term), crime and anti-social behavior after radical decriminalization in 2001. But sounding tough on drugs is too tempting for politicians, and most of the press screams at any sign of decriminalization. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...
- kuniva 7y ago
  I always find that weird, people from places way far out claiming Glasgow. We never did that in Paisley, we always said Paisley. I'm almost sure I've heard people from Wishaw, and even Shotts claiming they're from Glasgow. Overspill identity crisis or what.

daleharvey 7y ago

Paul Sweeney is one of the last remaining Labour MP's in Scotland, its very unlikely he will survive the next election. the MSP's are majority SNP now as has Glasgow Council recently been replaced by the SNP. I see the drug problem in described first hand, I live in Glasgow city center and if our tenement flat door is opened at night in the morning I will be stepping over users and needles on the stairs. However things are changing, the SNP are pushing for drug consumption rooms, currently being blocked by the UK GOV, but they are under increased pressure and will either buckle or independence will make it a non issue, as well as general city wide improvements, better policing + rehabilitation, reducing of shorter sentences etc.

smcl 7y ago

Arethuza posted a link to map visualisation of data on various factors around deprivation in Scotland. Here is Springburn on that map in case you are curious: https://simd.scot/2016/#/simd2016/BTTTTTT/14/-4.2336/55.8776/ https://simd.scot/2016/#/simd2016/BTTTTTT/14/-4.2336/55.8776...

C1sc0cat 7y ago

Its Scotland :-) when Donald Dewar died suddenly (senior Labour MP) the was no question that his agent (who I know) wouldn't be the next MP. Made a change to have an MP who had done a non political job for 20 years plus before becoming an MP.

GordonS 7y ago

> Yet each election term they voted in either the same politicians or politicians with the same manifestos There is a large cross-section of the population that vote for Labour irregardless of, well, anything. Generations have voted for Labour because their parents, grandparents and great great grandparents did, and because they believe Labour stands for working class people and values - all the while without once considering what their policies or values actually are, or indeed those of the opposing parties. This cross-section also firmly believes the Conservatives are 'rich toffs' trying to screw over the working classes, and the Liberal Democrats are 'liberal lefties' (and of course we can't have that!) Will the dogma ever end? The tabloid press, and indeed sometimes Labour politicians, continue their poisonous to stoking of the flames, and people just nod their heads. Politics in the UK really is a terrible mess.