5 ms·

There are almost no ethical uses for facial recognition. It is a technology for criminals.

by codedokode 7y ago

DiseasedBadger 7y ago
Wow, the completely untested downvotes are an incredible indictment of HN's moderation.
crimsonalucard 7y ago
What about unlocking my front door with a facial recognition lock. Are you telling me that's not ethical?
- coldtea 7y ago
  There are not ethical uses for facial recognition that we couldn't do with better, older and younger technologies.
- logfromblammo 7y ago
  Exactly so. A face is an identifier, not an authenticator. No biometric should ever unlock any lock by itself. It should only determine which thing-you-know or thing-you-have is usable for unlocking that lock. So if your front door recognizes your face, it decides that the RFID fob you typically keep in your pocket is good enough to unlock whenever that gets close enough to read, or that hearing the vocal sounds for "rezrov" or "open up" is an acceptable key. Otherwise, a housebreaker could take some photos with a telescopic lens and print your face onto a mannequin head with hydro-dip printing or silicone-pad transfer printing, and unlock your house with it. Forever. Or at least until you get a new face.
  - crimsonalucard 7y ago
    The technology doesn't exist yet but I'm talking about a facial recognition technology that is on par if not better than the human eye. Such a technology is on par with a lock. Because it is basically impossible for any human to imitate another human to a degree where they can murder someone and pretend to live his life. It's easier to copy a key than it is to reproduce a fully identical face. Twins being the exception to all of this, but with facial recognition devices that beat humans this still remains a possibility as no two faces are alike.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - WalterSear 7y ago
    Regardless, it's an ethical use case for facial recognition.
    - eveningcoffee 7y ago
      No, it is not because it does not work and presenting a non-working solution as a working one is not ethical.
      - WalterSear 7y ago
        Doubly moot. A use case isn't a functional product. And, the unethical or mis- application of a technology does not obviate ethical use cases. I concur that replacing usernames (and, by extension, hardware identifiers), rather than logins, is of relatively limited benefit, but it's a use case nonetheless.
        logfromblammo 7y ago
        Yes, the technology itself cannot be ethical or unethical. Ethical determinations require consideration of intent, which machines do not [currently] have. And they often also require analysis of failure modes due to deception or subversion. It is clear to me that a door-security system that included facial-recognition as an optional security-multiplier, and that did not willingly share its face data with any other person, device, or system, and that allowed the owner of a face to remove it from the system at will, would be an ethical use of the technology. But then again, if the system has to still work without the facial recognition in order to be ethical, you might as well leave it out and save the cost. Facial recognition is most useful when the intended use is least ethical.
- reificator 7y ago
  Regardless of whether it's ethical or not, because I'm not qualified to answer that question: Why do you want to treat your face and/or other biometric information as a password? Isn't it closer to a username?
  - filoleg 7y ago
    Username that is waaaay more difficult (if not impossible) to reproduce than any kind of password, even if the latter is known to the attacker (assuming facial recognition is implemented properly with the whole 3D face scanning and not just a flat image).
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- cheeseyPoofz 7y ago
  Hmmm, well, I'd say it's unethical to convince anyone that a lock secured by facial recognition is reliable enough to trust with your life, so... kind of? We know that fingerprints are a moderately flimsy biometric, and faces are even weaker. I'd cast a sideways look at anybody expecting facial recognition to prevent car theft. Your face is probably a pretty good biometric secret for a bicycle lock and not much else. On the same level as very weak key handshakes via RFID transponders. How secure are garage door openers. If that's your security stance, have at it, I guess. But if you really care about door locks, a 3D model that a stranger might try to print from a stereoscopic video or LIDAR capture could probably trick most facial recognition software in most cases. Not to mention identical twins and celebrity impersonators, and people with sunglasses and wigs, possibly...
- codedokode 7y ago
  Good. You have found a rare example of a legitimate use for facial recognition.
jmole 7y ago
yet literally every one of us is born with this capability.
- codedokode 7y ago
  Can you remember millions of faces? Can you watch video from millions of cameras simultaneously and create a list of routes and profiles of people taken by them? Can you look at a person and find his/her social network profile in a second? Sorry, but I doubt your capabilities can be even remotely compared to software.
chessturk 7y ago
Let's say I fully agree with you, now what? Ban K-Nearest-Neighbor?
- codedokode 7y ago
  Make face models equivalent to PII and restrict collecting, selling, exchanging them. If you don't do this then there will be cameras on every corner collecting and selling information about your habits, because merchants are desperate to obtain them.

There are almost no ethical uses for facial recognition. It is a technology for criminals.

DiseasedBadger 7y ago

Wow, the completely untested downvotes are an incredible indictment of HN's moderation.

crimsonalucard 7y ago

What about unlocking my front door with a facial recognition lock. Are you telling me that's not ethical?

coldtea 7y ago
There are not ethical uses for facial recognition that we couldn't do with better, older and younger technologies.
logfromblammo 7y ago
Exactly so. A face is an identifier, not an authenticator. No biometric should ever unlock any lock by itself. It should only determine which thing-you-know or thing-you-have is usable for unlocking that lock. So if your front door recognizes your face, it decides that the RFID fob you typically keep in your pocket is good enough to unlock whenever that gets close enough to read, or that hearing the vocal sounds for "rezrov" or "open up" is an acceptable key. Otherwise, a housebreaker could take some photos with a telescopic lens and print your face onto a mannequin head with hydro-dip printing or silicone-pad transfer printing, and unlock your house with it. Forever. Or at least until you get a new face.
- crimsonalucard 7y ago
  The technology doesn't exist yet but I'm talking about a facial recognition technology that is on par if not better than the human eye. Such a technology is on par with a lock. Because it is basically impossible for any human to imitate another human to a degree where they can murder someone and pretend to live his life. It's easier to copy a key than it is to reproduce a fully identical face. Twins being the exception to all of this, but with facial recognition devices that beat humans this still remains a possibility as no two faces are alike.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- WalterSear 7y ago
  Regardless, it's an ethical use case for facial recognition.
  - eveningcoffee 7y ago
    No, it is not because it does not work and presenting a non-working solution as a working one is not ethical.
    - WalterSear 7y ago
      Doubly moot. A use case isn't a functional product. And, the unethical or mis- application of a technology does not obviate ethical use cases. I concur that replacing usernames (and, by extension, hardware identifiers), rather than logins, is of relatively limited benefit, but it's a use case nonetheless.
      - logfromblammo 7y ago
        Yes, the technology itself cannot be ethical or unethical. Ethical determinations require consideration of intent, which machines do not [currently] have. And they often also require analysis of failure modes due to deception or subversion. It is clear to me that a door-security system that included facial-recognition as an optional security-multiplier, and that did not willingly share its face data with any other person, device, or system, and that allowed the owner of a face to remove it from the system at will, would be an ethical use of the technology. But then again, if the system has to still work without the facial recognition in order to be ethical, you might as well leave it out and save the cost. Facial recognition is most useful when the intended use is least ethical.
reificator 7y ago
Regardless of whether it's ethical or not, because I'm not qualified to answer that question: Why do you want to treat your face and/or other biometric information as a password? Isn't it closer to a username?
- filoleg 7y ago
  Username that is waaaay more difficult (if not impossible) to reproduce than any kind of password, even if the latter is known to the attacker (assuming facial recognition is implemented properly with the whole 3D face scanning and not just a flat image).
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
cheeseyPoofz 7y ago
Hmmm, well, I'd say it's unethical to convince anyone that a lock secured by facial recognition is reliable enough to trust with your life, so... kind of? We know that fingerprints are a moderately flimsy biometric, and faces are even weaker. I'd cast a sideways look at anybody expecting facial recognition to prevent car theft. Your face is probably a pretty good biometric secret for a bicycle lock and not much else. On the same level as very weak key handshakes via RFID transponders. How secure are garage door openers. If that's your security stance, have at it, I guess. But if you really care about door locks, a 3D model that a stranger might try to print from a stereoscopic video or LIDAR capture could probably trick most facial recognition software in most cases. Not to mention identical twins and celebrity impersonators, and people with sunglasses and wigs, possibly...
codedokode 7y ago
Good. You have found a rare example of a legitimate use for facial recognition.

jmole 7y ago

yet literally every one of us is born with this capability.

codedokode 7y ago
Can you remember millions of faces? Can you watch video from millions of cameras simultaneously and create a list of routes and profiles of people taken by them? Can you look at a person and find his/her social network profile in a second? Sorry, but I doubt your capabilities can be even remotely compared to software.

chessturk 7y ago

Let's say I fully agree with you, now what? Ban K-Nearest-Neighbor?

codedokode 7y ago
Make face models equivalent to PII and restrict collecting, selling, exchanging them. If you don't do this then there will be cameras on every corner collecting and selling information about your habits, because merchants are desperate to obtain them.