7 ms·

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

by cojxd 7y ago

jlangenauer 7y ago
For me. I'd love to see open borders, where everyone has the freedom to move to where they can achieve their goals and dreams, rather than being restricted to the country where they happened to be born. How many Einsteins have been born in Africa, but denied the chance to make the contribution to humanity that they could have? (And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's not necessarily true, and the path to open borders is a long one, not a sudden change we can make without massive upheaval right now.)
- temptemptemp111 7y ago
  You're a hypocrite if you don't open borders into your home for the homeless, then.
- refurb 7y ago
  And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's not necessarily true Ok, why is that not true? And I'd argue that any Einsteins born in Africa are going to find moving to another country and near impossible task regardless of how open the borders are.
  - jazzyjackson 7y ago
    OP said not necessarily true Take universal basic income, if combined with open borders, you are attracting people who would like to also get (say) $1000/m, who will now use that welfare to induce demand on people who may like to trade this freshly minted coin for some service they can render, so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt.
    - toinetoine 7y ago
      so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt. Without debt how would the state pay the monthly income for the increasing number of people coming to collect it?
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        They spend what they get - few people surviving on $12k/year are saving much. So do the people who sell them stuff, as do their providers, and so on and so forth. At every step, some taxes make their way into the state's coffers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplier_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplier_(economics)
        pixl97 7y ago
        Eh, this doesn't really work well with too much immigration running in to land and water use issues, along with uncontrolled need for infrastructure expansion.
      - mason55 7y ago
        MMT would suggest that the government prints money and then adjusts taxes to control inflation. So you have a bunch of new people move, they start collecting UBI, the government prints money to fund the new liabilities, the newly-immigrated spend their UBI, incomes/revenues go up for businesses, the overall size of the pie grows, and if inflation starts to get out of control you raise taxes such that everyone is still better off than before. Unfortunately this wouldn't work because of politics. You need a relatively reactive monetary & tax policy which just is not realistic.
        jmastrangelo 7y ago
        But what happens when you can't raise taxes any further? Or the high taxes shrink the motivation of the people running businesses to expand their businesses. The money has to come from somewhere or you _will_ have runaway inflation.
    - 7y ago
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- zebrahead 7y ago
  > the country where they happened to be born. They didn't just 'happen' to be born there - they, and the country, are the result of their ancestor's actions and struggles, and they are bound by more than mere coincidence.
- theflyinghorse 7y ago
  How many non-Einsteins from Africa and Asia would want to move to Western countries if given a chance? a few hundred million? A billion? How does a say Germany or France support a couple hundred more million people all at once? I think open borders is inherently a call for decreasing standards of living for the populations of those countries where most of the migration would be directed to. I just can't picture a scenario where hundreds of millions of people move to my country within a short span of time and not completely destroy the infrastructure under the weight of sheer numbers.
  - rajekas 7y ago
    Given that a whole lot of Western non-Einsteins moved to Africa/Asia as colonizers, looted and killed everything they could, stripped those countries bare and used that loot to build infrastructure in Euro-America, perhaps they should return the money they took with interest and no one will want to come.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - nradov 7y ago
      Sounds fair. Also the Scandinavians should pay reparations to Britain and France for everything the Vikings looted. And Mali should repay Ghana for the actions of the Manden Kurufaba. And so on.
burkaman 7y ago
There's a not insignificant number of professional economists who publicly support open borders. Example: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2017-02-28/world-without-borders https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2017-02-28/wor...
o_p 7y ago
For the capitalists of course, need more consumers and workers, lets chase infinite growth!
mindthegap 7y ago
For me: I grew up in Europe in times where the wall came down in Germany, a shared currency was established (Euro) and all European borders within Europe where suddenly passable without passport, visa checks, money exchange, someone judging you, etc.. Of course this caused other problems to solve, but the general feeling of freedom and being able to go some other country and even being able to live and work there was very liberating for me and motivated me to travel a lot (easy and relatively cheap in Europe by railroad). I don't want to argue whether or not this is possible for the whole world and what it would take, but it surely is a dream for me to live in a (global) society that makes this possible.
- luckylion 7y ago
  Have you been to other European countries before Schengen? I keep hearing how much easier it is now that you don't need your passport for travelling in Europe. I've traveled quite a bit before Schengen and the Euro went into effect, and I've never spent more than five minutes at a European border, and rarely more than five minutes exchanging currency. Granted, it's easier to know that they are robbing you at some tourist trap if you don't need to convert amounts in your head, but I'm not so sure that's a good thing if you want to enjoy your trip...
  - gattilorenz 7y ago
    That's for traveling, and the same currency is quite nice, especially when visiting multiple places in one trip. But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Not to mention the agreements between European countries (e.g. If you move, there's no need to change your driving license)
    - luckylion 7y ago
      > But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Is it though? I mean it's sure helpful if that's what you want to do, but it's not like that was impossible before. Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) it seems to be a small win, easing the bureaucratic process for a small number of citizens (that, I suppose, in Western Europe are generally wealthier than the average, and wouldn't exactly have to jump through hoops before).
finnjohnsen2 7y ago
It's a dream. There is something about our luck of being born in a good and wealthy place; then close it off, hence punishing people because they happen to be born in shitty place.
- cojxd 7y ago
  The fact that our countries are good and wealthy is not a matter of luck though.
  - grzm 7y ago
    I believe your parent is referring to the place where you’re born being a matter of luck: no decision or choice on one’s own part determines where one’s born.
  - xwvvvvwx 7y ago
    The dominance of eurasian societies is very likely an accident of geography more than anything else. You would probably find Guns, Germs, and Steel [1] quite illuminating. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
    - hellocs1 7y ago
      Meh, Guns, Germs, and Steel get a lot of criticism to be honest [1]. You can find plenty of counter examples that Diamond does not address. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1rzm07/what_are_some_of_the_main_anthropological/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1rzm07/wha...
  - refurb 7y ago
    Not sure why this is downvoted. A good example are the capitalist versus communist countries. Two sets of countries making different choices and ending up with different results.
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
empath75 7y ago
For pretty much anyone reading this, open borders is the reality. Any of us can show up unannounced almost anywhere on earth and be welcomed in with no more than a cursory interaction with customs, at least to visit. And if you can find a job or have some savings, you could move to quite a lot of them. I think people here would be a lot more in favor of them, if we were treated the same going to other countries as people in the developing world are treated coming here.
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  Being welcomed to visit for leisure or business is very, very different than "open borders"
_ph_ 7y ago
For me. To be precise: it is mostly a reality, a very highly appreciated one. I am also a German who grew up in western Germany before the wall came down. Since then, two things have changed. First and most obvious, the division of Germany has ended. The inner German border was the cruel evidence of what is needed to forcefully split people apart. As there was not just the Berlin Wall, but the whole border over several hundred kilometeres became a heavily fortified border. Basically just from one side as most of the guarding was in keeping east Germans from entering the west. It was walled, fenced, fully controlled by guard towers and even had robot guns which would automatically fire ony anything moving in the zone. This was certainly an example of all the suffering a closed border brings. And with the EU shortly after came the complete freedom of movement inside the EU. While the EU is made out of many often quite different countries, any EU citizen has the freedom of movement. That not only means I am allowed to travel to any of those countries but I have the same rights as any other citizen of that country. I could tomorrow decided to move do Edinburgh, I could do so without having to apply for anything. Just go there and look for a job. Even if any German citizen usually has little restrictions on international travel - which is great on its own - having the full rights to move is a great achievement. The example of Edinburgh also shows how disastrous the looming Brexit is. All economic reasons aside, the pure fact that there is a new border raised in Europe is so heartbreaking and of severe consequences for all involved people. And this is the reason, the EU won't accept any treaty which does not grant the fundamental rights, like the freedom of movement.
nkozyra 7y ago
> For whom is open borders a dream? For people who see closed borders and border "crises" as largely manufactured political and tribalistic/cultural barriers.
rayiner 7y ago
Sociopaths.
mikeash 7y ago
Me. I hate how the planet is arbitrarily sliced up. I hate the bureaucratic nonsense involved in going to various parts of it. I hate how my wife is forced to choose between citizenship in her country of birth and citizenship in her country of residence. I hate how our children have to get government approval just to visit their grandparents. And I hate how my welcome home to my own country after a brutally long plane ride is a long line, an agent who treats me like a suspected criminal, and the threat of upending my life.
- pixl97 7y ago
  Cool, but we're not going to do much about changing that anytime in the near future. The vast inequality between different places along with massively overpopulated locations in others sees sure to that.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    No shit. That’s why it’s a “dream.”
fwip 7y ago
If you believe in America's founders, you should believe in open borders. America's foundational documents are based on the the social contract theory of Hobbes & Locke - they differ on some aspects, but largely agree that governments are formed to elevate people from the State of Nature - we enter into a social contract to elevate ourselves. But people nowadays don't form governments - and very few have much influence over the government in which they live. If you are born into a country, you are subject to the governance of that country. By restricting the right of people to relocate to new governments, we deny them the ability to meaningfully assent to the social contract in which they live. If I'm born in a "shithole country" and I don't like it, tough luck. I gotta roll the dice to see if I get accepted for immigration in countries whose social contracts and mores I do agree with. I've never agreed to the social contract under which I am forced to live. The conservative view on borders is based on fear - the desire to protect the in-group from the out-group. Despite their objections, it is in direct opposition to the foundational ideals of this country.
Legogris 7y ago
I've formed a firm opinion that nation states with borders restricting people's movements and economical freedom based geographical citizenship is a leftover 20th century concept that we need to move overcome. Grew up in Europe and I see no reason why others shouldn't have the freedom of movement that I have, practical consequences aside. In my book it is (or should be) a fundamental right. It's more than just travel and tourism, it's also the right to settle as long as you comply with local law. I've been saddened and disillusioned to see the rise of support for restricted border control in my home country during the past decade.
- vixen99 7y ago
  Which do you want, a cradle to grave welfare system or open borders for all comers? You can't have both. Huge numbers of people are, for financial reasons, utterly dependent on welfare - they don't have the privilege of choosing not using it. Someone has to pay for it and for example, in the UK 50% of the population won't be paying for that in terms of income tax at all.
BiscoBro 7y ago
Very, very stupid people.
ashelmire 7y ago
...why wouldn't it be? Why is a world with effectively arbitrary borders (and a huge amount of money and human effort wasted defending them) preferable to a world without borders?
HillaryBriss 7y ago
I want open borders in every country which provides free government health care so that millions of retired Americans would be able to afford to move away from America. Most of America's health care dollars pay for late in life care so this would save American insurance providers and hospitals significant amounts of money. And a lot of American retirees would be able to realize their dreams of living out their retirements abroad. It would be a win-win.
- grotsnot 7y ago
  So you basically just want other governments to shoulder Americans' healthcare costs. Doesn't sound like a win for them
  - HillaryBriss 7y ago
    Well, not only that. I also want American retirees to benefit from enjoying their golden years in a fascinating new location full of scenic wonders, interesting people, excellent cuisine, music, language, art, architecture and other culture. I mean, imagine what these people would have to face otherwise: the dismal, frozen landscape of a city like Fargo or Cleveland, or the blazing hellscape of a city like Mojave, California. That would just suck for them.

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

by cojxd 7y ago

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

For me. I'd love to see open borders, where everyone has the freedom to move to where they can achieve their goals and dreams, rather than being restricted to the country where they happened to be born. How many Einsteins have been born in Africa, but denied the chance to make the contribution to humanity that they could have? (And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's not necessarily true, and the path to open borders is a long one, not a sudden change we can make without massive upheaval right now.)

temptemptemp111 7y ago
You're a hypocrite if you don't open borders into your home for the homeless, then.
refurb 7y ago
And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare states, that's not necessarily true Ok, why is that not true? And I'd argue that any Einsteins born in Africa are going to find moving to another country and near impossible task regardless of how open the borders are.
- jazzyjackson 7y ago
  OP said not necessarily true Take universal basic income, if combined with open borders, you are attracting people who would like to also get (say) $1000/m, who will now use that welfare to induce demand on people who may like to trade this freshly minted coin for some service they can render, so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt.
  - toinetoine 7y ago
    so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt. Without debt how would the state pay the monthly income for the increasing number of people coming to collect it?
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      They spend what they get - few people surviving on $12k/year are saving much. So do the people who sell them stuff, as do their providers, and so on and so forth. At every step, some taxes make their way into the state's coffers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplier_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplier_(economics)
      - pixl97 7y ago
        Eh, this doesn't really work well with too much immigration running in to land and water use issues, along with uncontrolled need for infrastructure expansion.
    - mason55 7y ago
      MMT would suggest that the government prints money and then adjusts taxes to control inflation. So you have a bunch of new people move, they start collecting UBI, the government prints money to fund the new liabilities, the newly-immigrated spend their UBI, incomes/revenues go up for businesses, the overall size of the pie grows, and if inflation starts to get out of control you raise taxes such that everyone is still better off than before. Unfortunately this wouldn't work because of politics. You need a relatively reactive monetary & tax policy which just is not realistic.
      - jmastrangelo 7y ago
        But what happens when you can't raise taxes any further? Or the high taxes shrink the motivation of the people running businesses to expand their businesses. The money has to come from somewhere or you _will_ have runaway inflation.
  - 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
zebrahead 7y ago
> the country where they happened to be born. They didn't just 'happen' to be born there - they, and the country, are the result of their ancestor's actions and struggles, and they are bound by more than mere coincidence.
theflyinghorse 7y ago
How many non-Einsteins from Africa and Asia would want to move to Western countries if given a chance? a few hundred million? A billion? How does a say Germany or France support a couple hundred more million people all at once? I think open borders is inherently a call for decreasing standards of living for the populations of those countries where most of the migration would be directed to. I just can't picture a scenario where hundreds of millions of people move to my country within a short span of time and not completely destroy the infrastructure under the weight of sheer numbers.
- rajekas 7y ago
  Given that a whole lot of Western non-Einsteins moved to Africa/Asia as colonizers, looted and killed everything they could, stripped those countries bare and used that loot to build infrastructure in Euro-America, perhaps they should return the money they took with interest and no one will want to come.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - nradov 7y ago
    Sounds fair. Also the Scandinavians should pay reparations to Britain and France for everything the Vikings looted. And Mali should repay Ghana for the actions of the Manden Kurufaba. And so on.

burkaman 7y ago

There's a not insignificant number of professional economists who publicly support open borders. Example: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2017-02-28/world-without-borders https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2017-02-28/wor...

o_p 7y ago

For the capitalists of course, need more consumers and workers, lets chase infinite growth!

mindthegap 7y ago

For me: I grew up in Europe in times where the wall came down in Germany, a shared currency was established (Euro) and all European borders within Europe where suddenly passable without passport, visa checks, money exchange, someone judging you, etc.. Of course this caused other problems to solve, but the general feeling of freedom and being able to go some other country and even being able to live and work there was very liberating for me and motivated me to travel a lot (easy and relatively cheap in Europe by railroad). I don't want to argue whether or not this is possible for the whole world and what it would take, but it surely is a dream for me to live in a (global) society that makes this possible.

luckylion 7y ago
Have you been to other European countries before Schengen? I keep hearing how much easier it is now that you don't need your passport for travelling in Europe. I've traveled quite a bit before Schengen and the Euro went into effect, and I've never spent more than five minutes at a European border, and rarely more than five minutes exchanging currency. Granted, it's easier to know that they are robbing you at some tourist trap if you don't need to convert amounts in your head, but I'm not so sure that's a good thing if you want to enjoy your trip...
- gattilorenz 7y ago
  That's for traveling, and the same currency is quite nice, especially when visiting multiple places in one trip. But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Not to mention the agreements between European countries (e.g. If you move, there's no need to change your driving license)
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Is it though? I mean it's sure helpful if that's what you want to do, but it's not like that was impossible before. Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) it seems to be a small win, easing the bureaucratic process for a small number of citizens (that, I suppose, in Western Europe are generally wealthier than the average, and wouldn't exactly have to jump through hoops before).

finnjohnsen2 7y ago

It's a dream. There is something about our luck of being born in a good and wealthy place; then close it off, hence punishing people because they happen to be born in shitty place.

cojxd 7y ago
The fact that our countries are good and wealthy is not a matter of luck though.
- grzm 7y ago
  I believe your parent is referring to the place where you’re born being a matter of luck: no decision or choice on one’s own part determines where one’s born.
- xwvvvvwx 7y ago
  The dominance of eurasian societies is very likely an accident of geography more than anything else. You would probably find Guns, Germs, and Steel [1] quite illuminating. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
  - hellocs1 7y ago
    Meh, Guns, Germs, and Steel get a lot of criticism to be honest [1]. You can find plenty of counter examples that Diamond does not address. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1rzm07/what_are_some_of_the_main_anthropological/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1rzm07/wha...
- refurb 7y ago
  Not sure why this is downvoted. A good example are the capitalist versus communist countries. Two sets of countries making different choices and ending up with different results.
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago

empath75 7y ago

For pretty much anyone reading this, open borders is the reality. Any of us can show up unannounced almost anywhere on earth and be welcomed in with no more than a cursory interaction with customs, at least to visit. And if you can find a job or have some savings, you could move to quite a lot of them. I think people here would be a lot more in favor of them, if we were treated the same going to other countries as people in the developing world are treated coming here.

oarabbus_ 7y ago
Being welcomed to visit for leisure or business is very, very different than "open borders"

_ph_ 7y ago

For me. To be precise: it is mostly a reality, a very highly appreciated one. I am also a German who grew up in western Germany before the wall came down. Since then, two things have changed. First and most obvious, the division of Germany has ended. The inner German border was the cruel evidence of what is needed to forcefully split people apart. As there was not just the Berlin Wall, but the whole border over several hundred kilometeres became a heavily fortified border. Basically just from one side as most of the guarding was in keeping east Germans from entering the west. It was walled, fenced, fully controlled by guard towers and even had robot guns which would automatically fire ony anything moving in the zone. This was certainly an example of all the suffering a closed border brings. And with the EU shortly after came the complete freedom of movement inside the EU. While the EU is made out of many often quite different countries, any EU citizen has the freedom of movement. That not only means I am allowed to travel to any of those countries but I have the same rights as any other citizen of that country. I could tomorrow decided to move do Edinburgh, I could do so without having to apply for anything. Just go there and look for a job. Even if any German citizen usually has little restrictions on international travel - which is great on its own - having the full rights to move is a great achievement. The example of Edinburgh also shows how disastrous the looming Brexit is. All economic reasons aside, the pure fact that there is a new border raised in Europe is so heartbreaking and of severe consequences for all involved people. And this is the reason, the EU won't accept any treaty which does not grant the fundamental rights, like the freedom of movement.

nkozyra 7y ago

> For whom is open borders a dream? For people who see closed borders and border "crises" as largely manufactured political and tribalistic/cultural barriers.

rayiner 7y ago

Sociopaths.

mikeash 7y ago

Me. I hate how the planet is arbitrarily sliced up. I hate the bureaucratic nonsense involved in going to various parts of it. I hate how my wife is forced to choose between citizenship in her country of birth and citizenship in her country of residence. I hate how our children have to get government approval just to visit their grandparents. And I hate how my welcome home to my own country after a brutally long plane ride is a long line, an agent who treats me like a suspected criminal, and the threat of upending my life.

pixl97 7y ago
Cool, but we're not going to do much about changing that anytime in the near future. The vast inequality between different places along with massively overpopulated locations in others sees sure to that.
- mikeash 7y ago
  No shit. That’s why it’s a “dream.”

fwip 7y ago

If you believe in America's founders, you should believe in open borders. America's foundational documents are based on the the social contract theory of Hobbes & Locke - they differ on some aspects, but largely agree that governments are formed to elevate people from the State of Nature - we enter into a social contract to elevate ourselves. But people nowadays don't form governments - and very few have much influence over the government in which they live. If you are born into a country, you are subject to the governance of that country. By restricting the right of people to relocate to new governments, we deny them the ability to meaningfully assent to the social contract in which they live. If I'm born in a "shithole country" and I don't like it, tough luck. I gotta roll the dice to see if I get accepted for immigration in countries whose social contracts and mores I do agree with. I've never agreed to the social contract under which I am forced to live. The conservative view on borders is based on fear - the desire to protect the in-group from the out-group. Despite their objections, it is in direct opposition to the foundational ideals of this country.

Legogris 7y ago

I've formed a firm opinion that nation states with borders restricting people's movements and economical freedom based geographical citizenship is a leftover 20th century concept that we need to move overcome. Grew up in Europe and I see no reason why others shouldn't have the freedom of movement that I have, practical consequences aside. In my book it is (or should be) a fundamental right. It's more than just travel and tourism, it's also the right to settle as long as you comply with local law. I've been saddened and disillusioned to see the rise of support for restricted border control in my home country during the past decade.

vixen99 7y ago
Which do you want, a cradle to grave welfare system or open borders for all comers? You can't have both. Huge numbers of people are, for financial reasons, utterly dependent on welfare - they don't have the privilege of choosing not using it. Someone has to pay for it and for example, in the UK 50% of the population won't be paying for that in terms of income tax at all.

BiscoBro 7y ago

Very, very stupid people.

ashelmire 7y ago

...why wouldn't it be? Why is a world with effectively arbitrary borders (and a huge amount of money and human effort wasted defending them) preferable to a world without borders?

HillaryBriss 7y ago

I want open borders in every country which provides free government health care so that millions of retired Americans would be able to afford to move away from America. Most of America's health care dollars pay for late in life care so this would save American insurance providers and hospitals significant amounts of money. And a lot of American retirees would be able to realize their dreams of living out their retirements abroad. It would be a win-win.

grotsnot 7y ago
So you basically just want other governments to shoulder Americans' healthcare costs. Doesn't sound like a win for them
- HillaryBriss 7y ago
  Well, not only that. I also want American retirees to benefit from enjoying their golden years in a fascinating new location full of scenic wonders, interesting people, excellent cuisine, music, language, art, architecture and other culture. I mean, imagine what these people would have to face otherwise: the dismal, frozen landscape of a city like Fargo or Cleveland, or the blazing hellscape of a city like Mojave, California. That would just suck for them.