8 ms·

Reducing pollution from boats by switching to electric motors

136 points by andyrebele 7y ago

gok 7y ago
...because marine fossil fuel engines are unbelievably filthy.
- deelowe 7y ago
  No marine boat has a muffler. Guess what they use instead?
  - andyrebele 7y ago
    The water. So they put the noise underwater, and it sounds quieter to the operator, so they think they're approaching the fish in a stealthier manner.
Accujack 7y ago
Unfortunately, like many vehicles electric boats are limited to new... no one offers retrofit parts, and it will take decades before enough of these trickle down to new owners for them to take the place of existing boats, even assuming the drives last that long. I'd convert my boat to electric in a heartbeat if I could retrofit the drive for a similar cost to a replacement engine/transmission... but that's still impossible, and probably will be for longer than I'll own it. Most of the people on the road or on the water don't buy new for very good reasons. If we're going to limit climate change, there has to be more done for all those people than just telling them "buy new or go without". An effort needs to be made by the governments of the world to provide affordable conversion parts or replacement vehicles for those who will never buy new.
- tyingq 7y ago
  They seem to be selling an outboard engine and battery pack that goes on your outboard boat, so I'm confused by your comment. https://www.purewatercraft.com/pure-outboard/ https://www.purewatercraft.com/pure-outboard/
  - Accujack 7y ago
    They're selling a 25-40 hp equivalent. My boat needs something like two 75 HP motors to run safely at displacement speeds, and much more to get on plane. In case you're curious, it's about 10M long. You have to have a larger boat to travel away from shore with any safety... small boats have to stick to the coast. My boat isn't actually very big, and doesn't have the range or stability to travel between continents away from shore, either. Electric scooters and electric outboards have been around for a while, they're okay for what they do. However, what I would need (and most of the people who own boats larger than 5M long) is the equivalent of a tesla battery pack and motors... which aren't available.
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      It's understandable that the first useful motors would be smaller than you seem to require. Big boats are fun and useful, but so are small boats. Someone will eventually make motors big enough for your needs. In the meantime, other boaters will enjoy the motors described in TFA. If you want to "travel between continents", get a sailboat. No powerboat is practical for that. If you're just talking about a fishing trip, powerboats smaller than 10M can certainly get you out of sight of shore.
      - Accujack 7y ago
        >If you want to "travel between continents", get a sailboat. No powerboat is practical for that Not true. Lots of power cruisers are out there, and all commercial traffic (cargo, people shipping, etc) happens via motor vessels.
    - andyrebele 7y ago
      There are 3 answers to the "higher power" topic: 1) higher power motors are easy, bigger batteries are expensive and heavy. 2) frequency and regularity of usage are the best determinants of whether electric makes economic sense, not size/power, but the bigger power boats tend to go infrequently and highly variable distances. 3) longer-term the low utilization rate high capex problem is solved by shared usage models (as it has been in every other field).
- freerobby 7y ago
  Doesn't meet "similar cost" criterion, but check out Torqeedo: https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us
- URSpider94 7y ago
  Torqueedo do offer a range of outboard and inboard motors that can be retrofitted into existing boats. https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/inboards https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/inboards
  - Accujack 7y ago
    Only for tiny boats, though, and they're quite expensive. My boat needs two 150kW plus engines to move at speed. I might be able to get by at displacement speed with two 50kW engines, but something that like isn't available, and neither is the needed battery pack (Li-Ion, lead is too heavy to work).
    - driverdan 7y ago
      If you can afford a boat with twin 200HP motors you can afford to retrofit it with electric.
      - sokoloff 7y ago
        They can also much more cheaply afford to not retrofit it, despite having some amount of inclination/willingness to do so. (They literally can't afford to retrofit it right now as nothing is commercially available in that power output range.)
      - Accujack 7y ago
        Common misconception. I purchased my boat for $3000, and have spent around $12000 on it in four years making it safe and cleaning it up. I don't have the money to pay for a $20,000 retrofit to electric power. I can't afford a Tesla, either.
        driverdan 7y ago
        That sounds like you got a pretty good deal.
- andyrebele 7y ago
  This outboard motor is 100% compatible with existing hulls, and complies with ABYC standards. That's the beauty of the boat market - a built-in API for the interface between the powertrain and the hull. The rowing club in the article is using the same hulls they've had for years, and mounting the new Pure Outboards on them.
viburnum 7y ago
Nobody needs a recreational power boat in the first place.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  Start making a list. There are quite a lot of things nobody needs. How much are you ready to sacrifice?
dade_ 7y ago
Power-boating was going to be my new expensive hobby, but I couldn't get over the noise and horrible pollution, not to mention direct (usually inadvertent) leaks of fuel and oil into the lake. So after training and getting my license, it has been shelved until I learn to sail, but electric will do nicely when it is ready.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  The gas is a little expensive but the motor noise seems fine to me and you can just not have leaks. Rinker 230 Festiva here for reference.
personjerry 7y ago
My bicycle is infinite times better than an electric car but it doesn't really serve the same purpose does it?
- notatoad 7y ago
  They could. LA has been painting their streets white to combat the heat island effect, think how much more effective it would be to replace all their roads with canals!
  - T3OU-736 7y ago
    I think LA is a fairly bad example - drought, desert earthquakes all conspire very much against that use case
    - notatoad 7y ago
      Yeah, it was maybe not an entirely serious suggestion
  - dylan604 7y ago
    They may not have to wait long, nor do any replacing. Just let the ocean levels continue to rise, and flood the LA basin. Venice's canals will be useless, but downtown LA will be just about right ;-)
- Robotbeat 7y ago
  A bicycle is not infinitely better. In fact, due to emissions from agriculture and livestock and inefficiency of conversion of food to mechanical work, if you have a heavily meat-based or fresh-fruit-Based diet (neither of which are common, I admit), the extra calories spent biking can actually have worse CO2 emissions than an electric car per mile.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    Source for this?
craz8 7y ago
For my second link to a Fully Charged episode on YouTube today, they did a story about this company in Europe refitting older vehicles with electric gear Their big plan is to have local river barge traffic be managed with electric tugs instead of diesel, but they’re having fun as they prove the technology. They have a Jaguar XJS converted to the same system as the tug to help debug it https://youtu.be/7zz3H0pSQ4Q https://youtu.be/7zz3H0pSQ4Q
- rasz 7y ago
  That nasty CRT whine (15KHz) made me instantly guess Siemens old timely brushed system :( You have to be really old to not go insane from hearing it.
RickJWagner 7y ago
Maybe for commercial boats that are often in use. I live where there are quite a few sport fishermen, many have bass boats. But even the hardcore enthusiasts might go out a day or two a week, for a total of maybe 10 hours. The vast majority probably put less than 100 hours a year on the boats. So..... maybe big reduction in emissions, but only for a short while. The cars don't make the same reduction, but they're in use a lot more hours.
- dylan604 7y ago
  On top of that, the bass boats are only on ICE powered engine while getting to their spots. Once there, they switch to electric powered trolling motors. It's all of the ski boats and jet skis that are the annoyingly loud and high emission crafts. One thing that surprised me growing up is that most water craft do not have mufflers. They just exhaust directly into the water which muffles. I used to think how the fish must love that.
- rgbrenner 7y ago
  From the article: Imagine the more mainstream boats, like bass boats, that can use 20-30 gallons of gas in a day, So taking your minimum... 100 hours a year, at 10 hours/day.. that's 10 days * 30 gallons = 300 gallons/year. A car averaging 30mpg, would use 300 gallons to travel 9000 miles. The average car travels 13500m/year.. so that's equivalent to 2/3rds of a car co2. It gets worse for your hardcore enthusiasts... day or two a week.. so 50-100 days or 1500 to 3000 gallons/year. That's equivalent to 45,000-90,000 mi/year.. or 3-6 cars worth of co2. If you have better numbers, then please provide them.. but it doesn't look like it's a co2 savings just for "commercial boats that are often in use"
TYPE_FASTER 7y ago
It’s really cool to see advancements in electric boat power. The Hinckley Dasher has dual inboard Torqeedo drive units. If you’re looking to retrofit something smaller, there’s a blog out there by a guy putting an electric outboard on a smaller Whaler.
Steltek 7y ago
Relatedly, here's a 2012 video of Jamie Hyneman talking about creating an electric outboard for Mythbusters for quiet operation while filming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EV2qq2-Lck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EV2qq2-Lck Pure makes a lot of the same claims about noise and performance. They seem to have upped the appearance though.
- andyrebele 7y ago
  Before we did this outboard, I watched the Jamie Hyneman video you referenced. Because he doesn't use active thermal management of the cells, I would expect the cycle life to be ~ 300 rather than the 1500 we expect with this one. Since battery depreciation totals about 4-5X as much as electricity usage over the life of the system, not doing thermal management multiplies the cost of an outing by about 5X. The Hyneman system would effectively pollute more than gas outboards, because of how quickly the batteries would be consumed.
softgrow 7y ago
Its not just boats going electric with positive results. Electric chainsaws starting to appear on trial near me for emergency services dealing with fallen trees. Much less noise, no smell (two stroke) and recharges itself on the truck. Just need someone to invent a self cleaning and sharpening one :)
- wahern 7y ago
  I use a handheld cordless circular saw--Makita 6 1/2" 18V brushless. These types of saws are in their 3rd or 4th generation. 6 1/2" isn't very big, but there are larger ones with 36V packs. I can't imagine the corded, handheld circular saw market lasting much longer. I know they're much more expensive (~3x excluding battery), but cordless is infinitely more convenient. Cordless chainsaws have been out for awhile, too, though perhaps until recently they lacked the necessary power and duration for professional work.
- zdragnar 7y ago
  I had an 80v electric chainsaw and it was great for odd jobs. Unfortunately, it stopped working. I know the battery is good- I've got a leaf blower that used the same battery. Therein lies the problem. If it were gas, I could take it down to the local small engine repair guy and get it fixed cheap. Who the hell knows what could be wrong with am electric one? Ultimately, I gave up on it, since I moved to a house with an outdoor wood furnace and upgraded to a 64cc gas model. There's really no comparison between the two, though that makes sense since they're definitely made for different markets.
- swayvil 7y ago
  I've got an electric chainsaw (Kobalt 40v). Pros : quiet, clean, light, ultra-reliable Cons : weak. Not good for cutting up medium-to-large trees. Only good for softwood under 9", hardwood under 4" I don't do much serious treefelling these days so I prefer it. And if I need a Husqvarna 350 or whatever I borrow it.
crazygringo 7y ago
I've always loved being on the water, but had a kind of instinctual revulsion at the gas usage, the fumes, the oil that leaks into the water, and the sheer noise from the engine -- like boating is about being with nature, but the gasoline aspect just ruins it for me. I tried sailing, but even then you need a backup motor and to get in/out of the oil-soaked harbor. (And sailing is a lot of work.) The idea of electric boats makes me actually interested in the idea of boating for the first time again... does anyone know if they leak oil just as much though?
- dylan604 7y ago
  Why would they even have oil to leak? Oil is a lubricant for the extreme heat conditions of a combustion engine. This is just an electric motor. If you think about it, you don't put oil in a ceiling fan that runs 24/7.
  - crazygringo 7y ago
    I mean, the buyer doesn't, but the factory does. Ceiling fans function with ball bearings that are oiled, same as bicycles function with chains that are oiled. Obviously oil doesn't get into the air, but contact with water is a different matter. I have zero knowledge about boat motors but had always assumed the oil leakage had something to do with lubricating movement of the propeller that also prevented sea water from getting in and corroding internal elements. Is this wrong? Do electric boat motors function completely without oil?
    - dylan604 7y ago
      Yes, electric motors function without oil. They're mainly magnets and coils of wire and are mostly* friction-less. Boat engines are the same concept as your car. Air, fuel, spark, piston. In fact, the boat my family had when I was a kid had an inboard/outboard setup. The engine was a Chrysler V6. It was fascinating to me as a kid because when the cover was pulled off, the entire engine was exposed and very accessible compared to it being in a car. Instead of a transmission connected to a drive shaft, it was connected to some worm gears that turned the prop. The main difference is a car's leaking oil mainly falls onto the streets (and gets diluted before hitting the water sources) where the boat's goes directly into the water.
dylan604 7y ago
Just tried to find out some information on their Outboard motor. The video there has got to be up there with one of the worst marketing pieces I've seen in a long time. There's nothing that gives me any info on the product, what it is, why it's different, nothing. Looks like somebody had a fun day at the lake shooting, but had no idea what the footage was to be used for, and then some poor guy in the edit bay had to make something (maybe the same person?). It's right up there with the Fyre festival promos. They might as well have shots of a cheese sandwich rather than the guys in the row boats.
- andyrebele 7y ago
  Ha! Thanks. The video (if you're referring to the one on the web site) is an attempt to give the viewer a modicum of the feeling you get with a ride in the boat. The FAQ on the web site, and the specifications listed there, address the questions you're posing.
ajross 7y ago
What this article is really saying is "Two stroke engines are outrageously nasty". Which we knew. They really are dozens of times worse for immediate pollutants (soot/particulates, hydrocarbons, NOx) than a routine car engine and catalytic converter. And they're significantly less efficient, so even their CO2 output is quite a bit higher than a gas engine of the same power. But they're a tiny market and no one has bothered to try to regulate it. This just isn't a big thing from a save-the-planet perspective. But it's a nifty product.
- Retric 7y ago
  Many types of pollution are also less impactful over the middle of the ocean. Acid rain and smog for example simply get diluted into nothingness under the ocean.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  Is 2 stroke really that common for personal-use boats? I've only heard of them running on 93 gas, which is all I see sold at marinas, no oil to mix in.
  - liability 7y ago
    I've seen tiny outriggers used for fishing,etc that are two-stroke. Maybe some jet skis too? I'm not sure. Certainly anything substantial won't be two-stroke.
    - analog31 7y ago
      As I understand it, there are increasing restrictions and calls to ban 2-stroke marine engines for smaller lakes, because the exhaust contains a fair amount of oil mist that settles on the water.
      - liability 7y ago
        If nothing else, the noise is a nuisance on small lakes. I grew up next to a small community-governed lake on which all gas was banned. People have been using electric on that lake for ages, which is particularly feasible since it's a small lake (300 acres or so iirc). Electric for small stuff makes a ton of sense and has for a long time.
arthurbrown 7y ago
Electric cars don't reduce emissions from tyre and brake wear. These particles make up a huge amount of air pollution at a size small enough to cause health issues. Once they settle, they are swept into waterways and form the majority of our microplastic problem. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135223101630187X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135223101... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/22/tyres-and-synthetic-clothes-big-cause-of-microplastic-pollution https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/22/tyres-an...
- JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
  What is the relevance to the article? I skim read it, was there a part to do with tyre wear I missed?
  - arthurbrown 7y ago
    It's great that they're getting reductions of this magnitude for watercraft, this should absolutely continue. But it is damning for electric cars. The tailpipe emissions (measured in this article) that are reduced by going electric are marginal in comparison, and the other emissions are still entirely present.
    - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
      It doesn't seem damning, electric cars are a not a silver bullet. This seems like an additional problem to tackle concurrently. If we came up with a new "Environmentally Friendly" tyre that solved that problem, than we would still have exhaust emissions to deal with. You don't need to fix both to attempt to improve one.
- jmpman 7y ago
  Brakes on Tesla are said to last twice as long or more. That would be a direct reduction in brake dust. Even with my Model 3 being floored from every stoplight since I’ve bought it, I’ve yet to hear the tires chirp. Suspect the tire wear is less than a comparable gas car due to the better traction control, and the harder tread in pursuit of lower rolling resistance.
mkw5053 7y ago
I love renting a Duffy [1] and putting around Newport Bay. I wish there was something similar but a little more sea-worthy for the San Francisco Bay! [1] https://duffyboats.com/ https://duffyboats.com/
- andyrebele 7y ago
  We took a coaching launch like the one in this article, fitted with the Pure Outboard, from Pier 52 in SF to Alameda Island and back. (Granted, it was not the wisest move.)
13of40 7y ago
I bought a new outboard for my fish-a-dinghy a few months ago, and I looked into getting an electric one. The prices are converging, but it seems like there are serious reliability issues with the (few) electric outboards currently on the market. I ended up getting a fuel-injected 4-stroke.
- andyrebele 7y ago
  Most of the electric outboards have bad reputations for reliability, as you said. And the warranties are even shorter than those of gas outboards. But this one is the first to be designed from the ground up for electric, and while the warranty hasn't been announced, it will be far longer than those of gas outboards. The reason the other electric outboards break down so much is that there are weak links, borrowed from other products (like gas outboards).
cjbenedikt 7y ago
https://www.google.com/amp/s/spectrum.ieee.org/transportation/marine/electric-container-ships-are-stuck-on-the-horizon.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/spectrum.ieee.org/transportatio...

136 points by andyrebele 7y ago

gok 7y ago

...because marine fossil fuel engines are unbelievably filthy.

deelowe 7y ago
No marine boat has a muffler. Guess what they use instead?
- andyrebele 7y ago
  The water. So they put the noise underwater, and it sounds quieter to the operator, so they think they're approaching the fish in a stealthier manner.

Accujack 7y ago

Unfortunately, like many vehicles electric boats are limited to new... no one offers retrofit parts, and it will take decades before enough of these trickle down to new owners for them to take the place of existing boats, even assuming the drives last that long. I'd convert my boat to electric in a heartbeat if I could retrofit the drive for a similar cost to a replacement engine/transmission... but that's still impossible, and probably will be for longer than I'll own it. Most of the people on the road or on the water don't buy new for very good reasons. If we're going to limit climate change, there has to be more done for all those people than just telling them "buy new or go without". An effort needs to be made by the governments of the world to provide affordable conversion parts or replacement vehicles for those who will never buy new.

tyingq 7y ago
They seem to be selling an outboard engine and battery pack that goes on your outboard boat, so I'm confused by your comment. https://www.purewatercraft.com/pure-outboard/ https://www.purewatercraft.com/pure-outboard/
- Accujack 7y ago
  They're selling a 25-40 hp equivalent. My boat needs something like two 75 HP motors to run safely at displacement speeds, and much more to get on plane. In case you're curious, it's about 10M long. You have to have a larger boat to travel away from shore with any safety... small boats have to stick to the coast. My boat isn't actually very big, and doesn't have the range or stability to travel between continents away from shore, either. Electric scooters and electric outboards have been around for a while, they're okay for what they do. However, what I would need (and most of the people who own boats larger than 5M long) is the equivalent of a tesla battery pack and motors... which aren't available.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    It's understandable that the first useful motors would be smaller than you seem to require. Big boats are fun and useful, but so are small boats. Someone will eventually make motors big enough for your needs. In the meantime, other boaters will enjoy the motors described in TFA. If you want to "travel between continents", get a sailboat. No powerboat is practical for that. If you're just talking about a fishing trip, powerboats smaller than 10M can certainly get you out of sight of shore.
    - Accujack 7y ago
      >If you want to "travel between continents", get a sailboat. No powerboat is practical for that Not true. Lots of power cruisers are out there, and all commercial traffic (cargo, people shipping, etc) happens via motor vessels.
  - andyrebele 7y ago
    There are 3 answers to the "higher power" topic: 1) higher power motors are easy, bigger batteries are expensive and heavy. 2) frequency and regularity of usage are the best determinants of whether electric makes economic sense, not size/power, but the bigger power boats tend to go infrequently and highly variable distances. 3) longer-term the low utilization rate high capex problem is solved by shared usage models (as it has been in every other field).
freerobby 7y ago
Doesn't meet "similar cost" criterion, but check out Torqeedo: https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us
URSpider94 7y ago
Torqueedo do offer a range of outboard and inboard motors that can be retrofitted into existing boats. https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/inboards https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/inboards
- Accujack 7y ago
  Only for tiny boats, though, and they're quite expensive. My boat needs two 150kW plus engines to move at speed. I might be able to get by at displacement speed with two 50kW engines, but something that like isn't available, and neither is the needed battery pack (Li-Ion, lead is too heavy to work).
  - driverdan 7y ago
    If you can afford a boat with twin 200HP motors you can afford to retrofit it with electric.
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      They can also much more cheaply afford to not retrofit it, despite having some amount of inclination/willingness to do so. (They literally can't afford to retrofit it right now as nothing is commercially available in that power output range.)
    - Accujack 7y ago
      Common misconception. I purchased my boat for $3000, and have spent around $12000 on it in four years making it safe and cleaning it up. I don't have the money to pay for a $20,000 retrofit to electric power. I can't afford a Tesla, either.
      - driverdan 7y ago
        That sounds like you got a pretty good deal.
andyrebele 7y ago
This outboard motor is 100% compatible with existing hulls, and complies with ABYC standards. That's the beauty of the boat market - a built-in API for the interface between the powertrain and the hull. The rowing club in the article is using the same hulls they've had for years, and mounting the new Pure Outboards on them.

viburnum 7y ago

Nobody needs a recreational power boat in the first place.

rootusrootus 7y ago
Start making a list. There are quite a lot of things nobody needs. How much are you ready to sacrifice?

dade_ 7y ago

Power-boating was going to be my new expensive hobby, but I couldn't get over the noise and horrible pollution, not to mention direct (usually inadvertent) leaks of fuel and oil into the lake. So after training and getting my license, it has been shelved until I learn to sail, but electric will do nicely when it is ready.

jimmaswell 7y ago
The gas is a little expensive but the motor noise seems fine to me and you can just not have leaks. Rinker 230 Festiva here for reference.

personjerry 7y ago

My bicycle is infinite times better than an electric car but it doesn't really serve the same purpose does it?

notatoad 7y ago
They could. LA has been painting their streets white to combat the heat island effect, think how much more effective it would be to replace all their roads with canals!
- T3OU-736 7y ago
  I think LA is a fairly bad example - drought, desert earthquakes all conspire very much against that use case
  - notatoad 7y ago
    Yeah, it was maybe not an entirely serious suggestion
- dylan604 7y ago
  They may not have to wait long, nor do any replacing. Just let the ocean levels continue to rise, and flood the LA basin. Venice's canals will be useless, but downtown LA will be just about right ;-)
Robotbeat 7y ago
A bicycle is not infinitely better. In fact, due to emissions from agriculture and livestock and inefficiency of conversion of food to mechanical work, if you have a heavily meat-based or fresh-fruit-Based diet (neither of which are common, I admit), the extra calories spent biking can actually have worse CO2 emissions than an electric car per mile.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Source for this?

craz8 7y ago

For my second link to a Fully Charged episode on YouTube today, they did a story about this company in Europe refitting older vehicles with electric gear Their big plan is to have local river barge traffic be managed with electric tugs instead of diesel, but they’re having fun as they prove the technology. They have a Jaguar XJS converted to the same system as the tug to help debug it https://youtu.be/7zz3H0pSQ4Q https://youtu.be/7zz3H0pSQ4Q

rasz 7y ago
That nasty CRT whine (15KHz) made me instantly guess Siemens old timely brushed system :( You have to be really old to not go insane from hearing it.

RickJWagner 7y ago

Maybe for commercial boats that are often in use. I live where there are quite a few sport fishermen, many have bass boats. But even the hardcore enthusiasts might go out a day or two a week, for a total of maybe 10 hours. The vast majority probably put less than 100 hours a year on the boats. So..... maybe big reduction in emissions, but only for a short while. The cars don't make the same reduction, but they're in use a lot more hours.

dylan604 7y ago
On top of that, the bass boats are only on ICE powered engine while getting to their spots. Once there, they switch to electric powered trolling motors. It's all of the ski boats and jet skis that are the annoyingly loud and high emission crafts. One thing that surprised me growing up is that most water craft do not have mufflers. They just exhaust directly into the water which muffles. I used to think how the fish must love that.
rgbrenner 7y ago
From the article: Imagine the more mainstream boats, like bass boats, that can use 20-30 gallons of gas in a day, So taking your minimum... 100 hours a year, at 10 hours/day.. that's 10 days * 30 gallons = 300 gallons/year. A car averaging 30mpg, would use 300 gallons to travel 9000 miles. The average car travels 13500m/year.. so that's equivalent to 2/3rds of a car co2. It gets worse for your hardcore enthusiasts... day or two a week.. so 50-100 days or 1500 to 3000 gallons/year. That's equivalent to 45,000-90,000 mi/year.. or 3-6 cars worth of co2. If you have better numbers, then please provide them.. but it doesn't look like it's a co2 savings just for "commercial boats that are often in use"

TYPE_FASTER 7y ago

It’s really cool to see advancements in electric boat power. The Hinckley Dasher has dual inboard Torqeedo drive units. If you’re looking to retrofit something smaller, there’s a blog out there by a guy putting an electric outboard on a smaller Whaler.

Steltek 7y ago

Relatedly, here's a 2012 video of Jamie Hyneman talking about creating an electric outboard for Mythbusters for quiet operation while filming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EV2qq2-Lck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EV2qq2-Lck Pure makes a lot of the same claims about noise and performance. They seem to have upped the appearance though.

andyrebele 7y ago
Before we did this outboard, I watched the Jamie Hyneman video you referenced. Because he doesn't use active thermal management of the cells, I would expect the cycle life to be ~ 300 rather than the 1500 we expect with this one. Since battery depreciation totals about 4-5X as much as electricity usage over the life of the system, not doing thermal management multiplies the cost of an outing by about 5X. The Hyneman system would effectively pollute more than gas outboards, because of how quickly the batteries would be consumed.

softgrow 7y ago

Its not just boats going electric with positive results. Electric chainsaws starting to appear on trial near me for emergency services dealing with fallen trees. Much less noise, no smell (two stroke) and recharges itself on the truck. Just need someone to invent a self cleaning and sharpening one :)

wahern 7y ago
I use a handheld cordless circular saw--Makita 6 1/2" 18V brushless. These types of saws are in their 3rd or 4th generation. 6 1/2" isn't very big, but there are larger ones with 36V packs. I can't imagine the corded, handheld circular saw market lasting much longer. I know they're much more expensive (~3x excluding battery), but cordless is infinitely more convenient. Cordless chainsaws have been out for awhile, too, though perhaps until recently they lacked the necessary power and duration for professional work.
zdragnar 7y ago
I had an 80v electric chainsaw and it was great for odd jobs. Unfortunately, it stopped working. I know the battery is good- I've got a leaf blower that used the same battery. Therein lies the problem. If it were gas, I could take it down to the local small engine repair guy and get it fixed cheap. Who the hell knows what could be wrong with am electric one? Ultimately, I gave up on it, since I moved to a house with an outdoor wood furnace and upgraded to a 64cc gas model. There's really no comparison between the two, though that makes sense since they're definitely made for different markets.
swayvil 7y ago
I've got an electric chainsaw (Kobalt 40v). Pros : quiet, clean, light, ultra-reliable Cons : weak. Not good for cutting up medium-to-large trees. Only good for softwood under 9", hardwood under 4" I don't do much serious treefelling these days so I prefer it. And if I need a Husqvarna 350 or whatever I borrow it.

crazygringo 7y ago

I've always loved being on the water, but had a kind of instinctual revulsion at the gas usage, the fumes, the oil that leaks into the water, and the sheer noise from the engine -- like boating is about being with nature, but the gasoline aspect just ruins it for me. I tried sailing, but even then you need a backup motor and to get in/out of the oil-soaked harbor. (And sailing is a lot of work.) The idea of electric boats makes me actually interested in the idea of boating for the first time again... does anyone know if they leak oil just as much though?

dylan604 7y ago
Why would they even have oil to leak? Oil is a lubricant for the extreme heat conditions of a combustion engine. This is just an electric motor. If you think about it, you don't put oil in a ceiling fan that runs 24/7.
- crazygringo 7y ago
  I mean, the buyer doesn't, but the factory does. Ceiling fans function with ball bearings that are oiled, same as bicycles function with chains that are oiled. Obviously oil doesn't get into the air, but contact with water is a different matter. I have zero knowledge about boat motors but had always assumed the oil leakage had something to do with lubricating movement of the propeller that also prevented sea water from getting in and corroding internal elements. Is this wrong? Do electric boat motors function completely without oil?
  - dylan604 7y ago
    Yes, electric motors function without oil. They're mainly magnets and coils of wire and are mostly* friction-less. Boat engines are the same concept as your car. Air, fuel, spark, piston. In fact, the boat my family had when I was a kid had an inboard/outboard setup. The engine was a Chrysler V6. It was fascinating to me as a kid because when the cover was pulled off, the entire engine was exposed and very accessible compared to it being in a car. Instead of a transmission connected to a drive shaft, it was connected to some worm gears that turned the prop. The main difference is a car's leaking oil mainly falls onto the streets (and gets diluted before hitting the water sources) where the boat's goes directly into the water.

dylan604 7y ago

Just tried to find out some information on their Outboard motor. The video there has got to be up there with one of the worst marketing pieces I've seen in a long time. There's nothing that gives me any info on the product, what it is, why it's different, nothing. Looks like somebody had a fun day at the lake shooting, but had no idea what the footage was to be used for, and then some poor guy in the edit bay had to make something (maybe the same person?). It's right up there with the Fyre festival promos. They might as well have shots of a cheese sandwich rather than the guys in the row boats.

andyrebele 7y ago
Ha! Thanks. The video (if you're referring to the one on the web site) is an attempt to give the viewer a modicum of the feeling you get with a ride in the boat. The FAQ on the web site, and the specifications listed there, address the questions you're posing.

ajross 7y ago

What this article is really saying is "Two stroke engines are outrageously nasty". Which we knew. They really are dozens of times worse for immediate pollutants (soot/particulates, hydrocarbons, NOx) than a routine car engine and catalytic converter. And they're significantly less efficient, so even their CO2 output is quite a bit higher than a gas engine of the same power. But they're a tiny market and no one has bothered to try to regulate it. This just isn't a big thing from a save-the-planet perspective. But it's a nifty product.

Retric 7y ago
Many types of pollution are also less impactful over the middle of the ocean. Acid rain and smog for example simply get diluted into nothingness under the ocean.
jimmaswell 7y ago
Is 2 stroke really that common for personal-use boats? I've only heard of them running on 93 gas, which is all I see sold at marinas, no oil to mix in.
- liability 7y ago
  I've seen tiny outriggers used for fishing,etc that are two-stroke. Maybe some jet skis too? I'm not sure. Certainly anything substantial won't be two-stroke.
  - analog31 7y ago
    As I understand it, there are increasing restrictions and calls to ban 2-stroke marine engines for smaller lakes, because the exhaust contains a fair amount of oil mist that settles on the water.
    - liability 7y ago
      If nothing else, the noise is a nuisance on small lakes. I grew up next to a small community-governed lake on which all gas was banned. People have been using electric on that lake for ages, which is particularly feasible since it's a small lake (300 acres or so iirc). Electric for small stuff makes a ton of sense and has for a long time.

arthurbrown 7y ago

Electric cars don't reduce emissions from tyre and brake wear. These particles make up a huge amount of air pollution at a size small enough to cause health issues. Once they settle, they are swept into waterways and form the majority of our microplastic problem. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135223101630187X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135223101... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/22/tyres-and-synthetic-clothes-big-cause-of-microplastic-pollution https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/22/tyres-an...

JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
What is the relevance to the article? I skim read it, was there a part to do with tyre wear I missed?
- arthurbrown 7y ago
  It's great that they're getting reductions of this magnitude for watercraft, this should absolutely continue. But it is damning for electric cars. The tailpipe emissions (measured in this article) that are reduced by going electric are marginal in comparison, and the other emissions are still entirely present.
  - JauntyHatAngle 7y ago
    It doesn't seem damning, electric cars are a not a silver bullet. This seems like an additional problem to tackle concurrently. If we came up with a new "Environmentally Friendly" tyre that solved that problem, than we would still have exhaust emissions to deal with. You don't need to fix both to attempt to improve one.
jmpman 7y ago
Brakes on Tesla are said to last twice as long or more. That would be a direct reduction in brake dust. Even with my Model 3 being floored from every stoplight since I’ve bought it, I’ve yet to hear the tires chirp. Suspect the tire wear is less than a comparable gas car due to the better traction control, and the harder tread in pursuit of lower rolling resistance.

mkw5053 7y ago

I love renting a Duffy [1] and putting around Newport Bay. I wish there was something similar but a little more sea-worthy for the San Francisco Bay! [1] https://duffyboats.com/ https://duffyboats.com/

andyrebele 7y ago
We took a coaching launch like the one in this article, fitted with the Pure Outboard, from Pier 52 in SF to Alameda Island and back. (Granted, it was not the wisest move.)

13of40 7y ago

I bought a new outboard for my fish-a-dinghy a few months ago, and I looked into getting an electric one. The prices are converging, but it seems like there are serious reliability issues with the (few) electric outboards currently on the market. I ended up getting a fuel-injected 4-stroke.

andyrebele 7y ago
Most of the electric outboards have bad reputations for reliability, as you said. And the warranties are even shorter than those of gas outboards. But this one is the first to be designed from the ground up for electric, and while the warranty hasn't been announced, it will be far longer than those of gas outboards. The reason the other electric outboards break down so much is that there are weak links, borrowed from other products (like gas outboards).

cjbenedikt 7y ago

https://www.google.com/amp/s/spectrum.ieee.org/transportation/marine/electric-container-ships-are-stuck-on-the-horizon.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/spectrum.ieee.org/transportatio...