16 ms·

> *No it isn't, there is no reason for any piece of software to be split between your computer and another company. ... You can still play Quake 3 and UT2004,

> *No it isn't, there is no reason for any piece of software to be split between your computer and another company. ... You can still play Quake 3 and UT2004, you'll notice a big fat error in overwatch because it is logging you into a server required for it to function." There is a reason and it's a darned good one: piracy. It was well discussed on professional game development sites in the '90s and '00s; building a online game or game with a large online component meant that it was immune to being pirated.

monster99 7y ago
Yeah but that meant stealing parts of the game and taking the game hostage on servers in game companies offices. You forgot that part. AKA you can "kill piracy" by literally stealing games from your customers and increase profits. That's what you just argued. Note that pre high speed internet game companies were forced to sell you complete games on the PC. The internet just allowed them to sell incomplete software fraudulently coding games and con the public. Go look at the microtransactions in overwatch and assassins creed, if you think it's for your benefit you are deluded. Basic game features are held hostage.
- dleslie 7y ago
  It's not theft to provide software as a service. Nor is it a con of any sort.
  - monster99 7y ago
    It is because that means you control my PC from your server in your office and force me to use software in a particular way, that's what I call fraud buddy. You can shut off a piece of software or deny me access to the files I paid good money for. It's all because of corrupt IP law regarding software that was bribed away by silicon valley tech money, they made sure the public had no ownership rights regarding software. So we might ask - dude where are the publics property rights regarding game software? But that might be too sticky an argument, the world is run by a lawless corporate oligarchy that rubber stamps the laws it wants passed. Given infinite IP law extension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act#/media/File:Tom_Bell's_graph_showing_extension_of_U.S._copyright_term_over_time.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act#/...
    - dleslie 7y ago
      You are not forced to use the software. Customers pay for access to a client and limited term access to the service it requires. It is not fraud because there is no deception.
      - monster99 7y ago
        It is fraud because I have no power to modify your bad behavior, when you code a game fraudulently. You can sit in the middle of the continent and get the lay public to buy software infected with privacy and consumer rights violating program code. That is how DRM and non ownership occured, not because PC gamers wanted it, but because you could force it using internet infrastructure because your customers are 100's of miles away. You no longer have to press CD's/DVD's and give them the complete software. You can just hold parts of the game files back on a computer in your office. AKA selling incomplete software or fraud.
        15155 7y ago
        Since when are you the legal arbiter of what's "incomplete?" This would be fraud if the deal turned out to be misrepresented: they promised to give you you "all of the software" and you got something "incomplete." I'm willing to bet the Terms of Service for whichever piece of theoretical SaaS you're voluntarily opting to purchase a license for clearly outlines your rights and relationship with the vendor. It's not "fraud" just because you think it ought to be.
        monster99 7y ago
        It is because the internet collectivizes the ignorant public and you can use them as the army of the ignorant to defraud me of my basic rights to general computing. The game industry and microsoft are well ware of the publics lack of understanding of how computers and computer networking work. Two pre-requisites you would need to have a functioning market. The information asymmetry between game buyer and game maker is off the charts. I who do not want DRM and spyware in windows 10 are now forced along because ignorant parents buying computers don't understand or don't care about such an issue. Meaning I lose control of my rights to own my own files and not be spied on because the worlds global public is computer stupid.
Crinus 7y ago
> There is a reason and it's a darned good one: piracy. This is not a good reason at all, especially from the consumer's perspective.
- dleslie 7y ago
  Game development is a risky and often thankless undertaking as it is, that the developers sought profit in the face of widespread IP theft is neither immoral nor unsurprising.
  - monster99 7y ago
    It is when they are stealing the game files and code using public internet infrastructure, aka selling you incomplete software.
    - dleslie 7y ago
      It is not theft to not consent to sell a particular sort of product, and instead to sell another. Software as a service is not theft.
    - a1369209993 7y ago
      > stealing the game files The correct term is "fraud". Just because copyright trolls misuse words that way doesn't mean we should sink to their level.
  - Crinus 7y ago
    > often thankless undertaking Why would i "thank" someone that puts unnecessary restrictions on how i can use the program i paid them money for? > neither immoral I see it as very immoral to deny me access and control to the software i paid for, especially when that happens because the developer treating me in a guilty-by-default way for something they have no idea if i'll do or not.
    - dleslie 7y ago
      You paid for access to a client and limited term access to the services it requires. If that's not acceptable to you then _do not purchase it_. It's a game. No one is forcing you to play it.
uhhhhhhh 7y ago
Also hardware/horsepower. MMO's work at a scale different than 2, 4 or even 8 player games do. Often its not possible, practical or more prone to issues to try and have a client only model for some games. Eve Online is a good example of this.
II2II 7y ago
Out of curiosity: how does piracy for a single play or local multiplayer game from the '90s and '00s compare to today? Things like legitimate sources for digital distribution and regular sales could have an impact on piracy without requiring Internet connectivity for DRM.
- monster99 7y ago
  The long term trend in PC gaming was to slowly move parts of game programs onto servers in corporate offices so they could control them and extract monopoly profits. The goal for any capitalist organization is monopoly profits. You can do that in many ways. League of legends and DOTA 2 were just real time strategy games that have been coded to use the mainframe model, instead of the locally run application model like quake 3 and Unreal tournament. That was the whole plan for all new PC games. Think about this - league of legends makes pure profit selling flags to display skins that are already on kids machines because we know how computers work. That was the end game for the game indsutry to resell the same game assets like skins and characters over and over at insane margins. That's exactly what we got with lootboxes and mobile - aka a platform that is completley locked down and there is no software ownership. Go to google and select images, and put in "mobile game revenue 2019" or any other year just prior to this one. Then compare it to PC or console game revenue. The software industry is obsessed with locking down the PC because they see the mad profits from mobile. That's why we got drm in windows 10... It's all been slowly building from early succeses of walled gardens like mmo's and steam in 2004, to fully server locked multiplayer games that companies control like league and dota 2. To mobile gacha games that sell gambling for pokemon like characters to kids for sick profits without the kids getting any ownership of the software they are paying for.

monster99 7y ago

Yeah but that meant stealing parts of the game and taking the game hostage on servers in game companies offices. You forgot that part. AKA you can "kill piracy" by literally stealing games from your customers and increase profits. That's what you just argued. Note that pre high speed internet game companies were forced to sell you complete games on the PC. The internet just allowed them to sell incomplete software fraudulently coding games and con the public. Go look at the microtransactions in overwatch and assassins creed, if you think it's for your benefit you are deluded. Basic game features are held hostage.

dleslie 7y ago
It's not theft to provide software as a service. Nor is it a con of any sort.
- monster99 7y ago
  It is because that means you control my PC from your server in your office and force me to use software in a particular way, that's what I call fraud buddy. You can shut off a piece of software or deny me access to the files I paid good money for. It's all because of corrupt IP law regarding software that was bribed away by silicon valley tech money, they made sure the public had no ownership rights regarding software. So we might ask - dude where are the publics property rights regarding game software? But that might be too sticky an argument, the world is run by a lawless corporate oligarchy that rubber stamps the laws it wants passed. Given infinite IP law extension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act#/media/File:Tom_Bell's_graph_showing_extension_of_U.S._copyright_term_over_time.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act#/...
  - dleslie 7y ago
    You are not forced to use the software. Customers pay for access to a client and limited term access to the service it requires. It is not fraud because there is no deception.
    - monster99 7y ago
      It is fraud because I have no power to modify your bad behavior, when you code a game fraudulently. You can sit in the middle of the continent and get the lay public to buy software infected with privacy and consumer rights violating program code. That is how DRM and non ownership occured, not because PC gamers wanted it, but because you could force it using internet infrastructure because your customers are 100's of miles away. You no longer have to press CD's/DVD's and give them the complete software. You can just hold parts of the game files back on a computer in your office. AKA selling incomplete software or fraud.
      - 15155 7y ago
        Since when are you the legal arbiter of what's "incomplete?" This would be fraud if the deal turned out to be misrepresented: they promised to give you you "all of the software" and you got something "incomplete." I'm willing to bet the Terms of Service for whichever piece of theoretical SaaS you're voluntarily opting to purchase a license for clearly outlines your rights and relationship with the vendor. It's not "fraud" just because you think it ought to be.
        monster99 7y ago
        It is because the internet collectivizes the ignorant public and you can use them as the army of the ignorant to defraud me of my basic rights to general computing. The game industry and microsoft are well ware of the publics lack of understanding of how computers and computer networking work. Two pre-requisites you would need to have a functioning market. The information asymmetry between game buyer and game maker is off the charts. I who do not want DRM and spyware in windows 10 are now forced along because ignorant parents buying computers don't understand or don't care about such an issue. Meaning I lose control of my rights to own my own files and not be spied on because the worlds global public is computer stupid.

Crinus 7y ago

> There is a reason and it's a darned good one: piracy. This is not a good reason at all, especially from the consumer's perspective.

dleslie 7y ago
Game development is a risky and often thankless undertaking as it is, that the developers sought profit in the face of widespread IP theft is neither immoral nor unsurprising.
- monster99 7y ago
  It is when they are stealing the game files and code using public internet infrastructure, aka selling you incomplete software.
  - dleslie 7y ago
    It is not theft to not consent to sell a particular sort of product, and instead to sell another. Software as a service is not theft.
  - a1369209993 7y ago
    > stealing the game files The correct term is "fraud". Just because copyright trolls misuse words that way doesn't mean we should sink to their level.
- Crinus 7y ago
  > often thankless undertaking Why would i "thank" someone that puts unnecessary restrictions on how i can use the program i paid them money for? > neither immoral I see it as very immoral to deny me access and control to the software i paid for, especially when that happens because the developer treating me in a guilty-by-default way for something they have no idea if i'll do or not.
  - dleslie 7y ago
    You paid for access to a client and limited term access to the services it requires. If that's not acceptable to you then _do not purchase it_. It's a game. No one is forcing you to play it.

uhhhhhhh 7y ago

Also hardware/horsepower. MMO's work at a scale different than 2, 4 or even 8 player games do. Often its not possible, practical or more prone to issues to try and have a client only model for some games. Eve Online is a good example of this.

II2II 7y ago

Out of curiosity: how does piracy for a single play or local multiplayer game from the '90s and '00s compare to today? Things like legitimate sources for digital distribution and regular sales could have an impact on piracy without requiring Internet connectivity for DRM.

monster99 7y ago
The long term trend in PC gaming was to slowly move parts of game programs onto servers in corporate offices so they could control them and extract monopoly profits. The goal for any capitalist organization is monopoly profits. You can do that in many ways. League of legends and DOTA 2 were just real time strategy games that have been coded to use the mainframe model, instead of the locally run application model like quake 3 and Unreal tournament. That was the whole plan for all new PC games. Think about this - league of legends makes pure profit selling flags to display skins that are already on kids machines because we know how computers work. That was the end game for the game indsutry to resell the same game assets like skins and characters over and over at insane margins. That's exactly what we got with lootboxes and mobile - aka a platform that is completley locked down and there is no software ownership. Go to google and select images, and put in "mobile game revenue 2019" or any other year just prior to this one. Then compare it to PC or console game revenue. The software industry is obsessed with locking down the PC because they see the mad profits from mobile. That's why we got drm in windows 10... It's all been slowly building from early succeses of walled gardens like mmo's and steam in 2004, to fully server locked multiplayer games that companies control like league and dota 2. To mobile gacha games that sell gambling for pokemon like characters to kids for sick profits without the kids getting any ownership of the software they are paying for.