4 ms·

Other places have a war on drugs, or have regulations about lemonade stands, and they don't have the pathologically awful policing that the US has. The US is e

by DanBC 7y ago

Other places have a war on drugs, or have regulations about lemonade stands, and they don't have the pathologically awful policing that the US has. The US is extraordinarily violent. That's where you need to start: why is violence so common and acceptable in the US?

geggam 7y ago
Violence is what every govt threatens its citizens with to ensure peace ( irony no ? ) What is not common in the US is a respect for others. The police do not respect the citizens. The citizens dont respect the police or the govt. Respect is earned. Tell me you think the police or govt has earned our respect ? Because of this mutual lack of respect violence is almost certain.
- Retra 7y ago
  I'm going to quote a previous comment of mine here, because I think your rhetoric is shallow: >Violence is usually too far removed from the relevant abstractions. It's not difficult to see violence behind everything, because rules don't mean much if they aren't enforced, and it's all too easy to conflate violence with a threat of violence, or a threat of force with a threat of violence, etc. > But that's not a very useful perspective; a well-functioning society filters violence so that it is only applied when things go seriously awry, and most of us should only ever threatened by minor inconveniences. To focus on violence is to be reductive; it is like trying to talk about programming in terms of electromagnetic laws -- yes, computers ultimately run on electricity, and social powers are ultimately enforced through violence, but the abstractions we've built atop those facts are actually very relevant and useful.
  - geggam 7y ago
    Now you are saying a specific group of people get to define acceptable violence. This is insane... who defines that group ? Are all govts legitimate ? Do all govts get to define violence ? There is no ethical violence or all violence is ethical because your reasons arent more valid than someone elses
    - Retra 7y ago
      I am not saying that. I'm saying that considering the government to act only violently is a gross mischaracterization of reality such that even if you define things such that it is technically true, it is not a useful position to take. My government has never forced me to do anything with a threat of violence -- I have been threatened with different manners of obvious inconvenience, but if that is no more acceptable to you than an actual threat of violence, then I'm afraid that is an unproductive, reductive, and uncompromising opinion.
      - geggam 7y ago
        If you commit a victimless crime (speeding) and the agent of the state fears for his life while talking to you... you are dead. How is that not violent ?
      - turk73 7y ago
        So taxes are purely voluntary in your country? Must be nice! EVERYTHING, absolutely EVERYTHING a government "asks" of you comes with the implicit threat of violence for those who do not comply. There is only one tool in the box.
drawnwren 7y ago
I agree with this line of reasoning as well. Drug trafficking is punishable by death in Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, and Indonesia. Other East Asian countries _highly_ criminalize drugs and have significantly lower crime rates along with significantly higher rates of police reporting.
- k_sze 7y ago
  Nope, not Hong Kong. HK hasn’t had death penalty for anything for a loooong time.
  - drawnwren 7y ago
    Whoops, HK is only life in prison. Taiwan is death.
merpnderp 7y ago
The US is a violent place even without guns. The murder rates for non-gun violence are still astronomical compared to other developed countries. It's likely always been violent place, so how does that change?
- nradov 7y ago
  That is highly misleading. If you look at the overall per capita rates of violent death since 1776 it's clear that on average Europeans are far more violent than Americans. Limiting the count of deaths to just those that meet the legal definition of "murder" is disingenuous.
- turk73 7y ago
  Now just hold on a second. Show your work, please. I don't think of the US overall as having much violence. I face nearly no risk of home invasion, mugging, or anything, really, and that is true for the vast majority of Americans. Let's be honest: US murder rates are high because of one particular demographic of people involved in particular criminal enterprises. Drug war or no, that is the reality. There are neighborhoods in the nearby cities I don't go near because of the possibility of becoming involved in a violent encounter, probably only due to my being white in a non-white area. Meanwhile, I can go pretty much anywhere else in the US and never have a concern. Why is that? Mass shootings? Please. They are vanishingly low on the probability of dying chart. I worry more about crossing the street. Those are sad events. So are car crashes, plane crashes, E Coli outbreaks, cancer, heart disease, etc. The worst thing is how "gun violence" is counted separately and those figures includes things like suicides and police shootings of people in the act of committing felony crimes. Those statistics are ginned to the max in order to mislead the public in support of additional civil disarmament. The implications of that are speculative, but I would say it is so that the next round of subjugation and abuse of the public can take place under the color of law without the threat of push back to those doing the pushing. If you look at violent crimes in European countries, there is more of it there but they only report crimes once the case has been cleared. No conclusion=no crime mentioned. It is a gigantic lie. If European nations are so safe, how come the cops are nearly always paired with soldiers armed with rifles? You see this everywhere across Europe, in fact. In all those gun-free paradises over there, what threat is on their minds? Or is that just a big show to keep the public in fear? As I have noted, if you aren't involved in criminal activities, your chances of being acted upon violently in the US are very low.
danmaz74 7y ago
I'm pretty sure that the number of guns really doesn't help. If I were a police officer, I would be much more nervous in the US than most of Europe (to make an example).
steveeq1 7y ago
I never understood why either. For some reason American music tastes (hip-hop) often glorify greed, crime, and lawnessness and our culture does relatively little to call this behavior out. It's actually NORMAL in american culture to be blase about music that is openly violent, racist, and sexist. It really is indicative of a sick society. Most people that I approach the subject about is "yeah, so what?"
- tripzilch 7y ago
  Well, at least they bleep the F-word. Other countries don't do that, but they do restrain the amount of violence on TV and look where THAT got them.

by DanBC 7y ago

geggam 7y ago

Violence is what every govt threatens its citizens with to ensure peace ( irony no ? ) What is not common in the US is a respect for others. The police do not respect the citizens. The citizens dont respect the police or the govt. Respect is earned. Tell me you think the police or govt has earned our respect ? Because of this mutual lack of respect violence is almost certain.

Retra 7y ago
I'm going to quote a previous comment of mine here, because I think your rhetoric is shallow: >Violence is usually too far removed from the relevant abstractions. It's not difficult to see violence behind everything, because rules don't mean much if they aren't enforced, and it's all too easy to conflate violence with a threat of violence, or a threat of force with a threat of violence, etc. > But that's not a very useful perspective; a well-functioning society filters violence so that it is only applied when things go seriously awry, and most of us should only ever threatened by minor inconveniences. To focus on violence is to be reductive; it is like trying to talk about programming in terms of electromagnetic laws -- yes, computers ultimately run on electricity, and social powers are ultimately enforced through violence, but the abstractions we've built atop those facts are actually very relevant and useful.
- geggam 7y ago
  Now you are saying a specific group of people get to define acceptable violence. This is insane... who defines that group ? Are all govts legitimate ? Do all govts get to define violence ? There is no ethical violence or all violence is ethical because your reasons arent more valid than someone elses
  - Retra 7y ago
    I am not saying that. I'm saying that considering the government to act only violently is a gross mischaracterization of reality such that even if you define things such that it is technically true, it is not a useful position to take. My government has never forced me to do anything with a threat of violence -- I have been threatened with different manners of obvious inconvenience, but if that is no more acceptable to you than an actual threat of violence, then I'm afraid that is an unproductive, reductive, and uncompromising opinion.
    - geggam 7y ago
      If you commit a victimless crime (speeding) and the agent of the state fears for his life while talking to you... you are dead. How is that not violent ?
    - turk73 7y ago
      So taxes are purely voluntary in your country? Must be nice! EVERYTHING, absolutely EVERYTHING a government "asks" of you comes with the implicit threat of violence for those who do not comply. There is only one tool in the box.

drawnwren 7y ago

I agree with this line of reasoning as well. Drug trafficking is punishable by death in Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, and Indonesia. Other East Asian countries _highly_ criminalize drugs and have significantly lower crime rates along with significantly higher rates of police reporting.

k_sze 7y ago
Nope, not Hong Kong. HK hasn’t had death penalty for anything for a loooong time.
- drawnwren 7y ago
  Whoops, HK is only life in prison. Taiwan is death.

merpnderp 7y ago

The US is a violent place even without guns. The murder rates for non-gun violence are still astronomical compared to other developed countries. It's likely always been violent place, so how does that change?

nradov 7y ago
That is highly misleading. If you look at the overall per capita rates of violent death since 1776 it's clear that on average Europeans are far more violent than Americans. Limiting the count of deaths to just those that meet the legal definition of "murder" is disingenuous.
turk73 7y ago
Now just hold on a second. Show your work, please. I don't think of the US overall as having much violence. I face nearly no risk of home invasion, mugging, or anything, really, and that is true for the vast majority of Americans. Let's be honest: US murder rates are high because of one particular demographic of people involved in particular criminal enterprises. Drug war or no, that is the reality. There are neighborhoods in the nearby cities I don't go near because of the possibility of becoming involved in a violent encounter, probably only due to my being white in a non-white area. Meanwhile, I can go pretty much anywhere else in the US and never have a concern. Why is that? Mass shootings? Please. They are vanishingly low on the probability of dying chart. I worry more about crossing the street. Those are sad events. So are car crashes, plane crashes, E Coli outbreaks, cancer, heart disease, etc. The worst thing is how "gun violence" is counted separately and those figures includes things like suicides and police shootings of people in the act of committing felony crimes. Those statistics are ginned to the max in order to mislead the public in support of additional civil disarmament. The implications of that are speculative, but I would say it is so that the next round of subjugation and abuse of the public can take place under the color of law without the threat of push back to those doing the pushing. If you look at violent crimes in European countries, there is more of it there but they only report crimes once the case has been cleared. No conclusion=no crime mentioned. It is a gigantic lie. If European nations are so safe, how come the cops are nearly always paired with soldiers armed with rifles? You see this everywhere across Europe, in fact. In all those gun-free paradises over there, what threat is on their minds? Or is that just a big show to keep the public in fear? As I have noted, if you aren't involved in criminal activities, your chances of being acted upon violently in the US are very low.

danmaz74 7y ago

I'm pretty sure that the number of guns really doesn't help. If I were a police officer, I would be much more nervous in the US than most of Europe (to make an example).

steveeq1 7y ago

I never understood why either. For some reason American music tastes (hip-hop) often glorify greed, crime, and lawnessness and our culture does relatively little to call this behavior out. It's actually NORMAL in american culture to be blase about music that is openly violent, racist, and sexist. It really is indicative of a sick society. Most people that I approach the subject about is "yeah, so what?"

tripzilch 7y ago
Well, at least they bleep the F-word. Other countries don't do that, but they do restrain the amount of violence on TV and look where THAT got them.