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I don't think this is a discussion for developers. Every human being should "do no harm". The thing is, you get no money by looking out for others. It's hard to

by _def 7y ago

I don't think this is a discussion for developers. Every human being should "do no harm". The thing is, you get no money by looking out for others. It's hard to see the (short-term) benefits. And I think because of that there are a lot of people acting very egocentric and not for the greater good. I don't know how to fix this though.

neon_me 7y ago
> The thing is, you get no money by looking out for others. It's hard to see the (short-term) benefits. This is the main problem of us. We perceive money and short-term goals (self) over of anything else. To fix the lack of personal responsibility in broader part of ecosystem is crucial. Therefore, sort of Hippocratic Oath for software and hardware developers/managers and education to behave in moral constraints is important. We are playing bigger role in shaping how future on Earth(and other planets) will looks like. So it will be beneficial and important to signup for ethical codex. I am surprised that we are not already doing it - globally. How come? How is that possible?
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  You said why already in the second sentence of the first paragraph - there is nothing to be gained from it and the codexes wouldn't be binding and the last thing we need is to give liars more tools to feign trustworthiness.
  - neon_me 7y ago
    Ok, so what is the purpose of Hippocratic Oath? Why we have such things as Bar Association for lawyers? Statements are important - at least you have to fight with your inner feeling that "you lied" to all when it actual status quo its just "matter of perspective" bending morals
- _def 7y ago
  The nearest thing that comes to my mind are the hacker ethics from the CCC https://www.ccc.de/en/hackerethics https://www.ccc.de/en/hackerethics Of course it doesn't really cover the points from the article but think it's sort of related. I think the article really clashes with our everyday life. If there are devs for instance which think they have a shitty paid job and are bombarded with projects and tasks, I don't blame them for doing low quality work. Because there are companies that exactly want that. Because it's cheaper. And remember kids, cheaper is aaaalways better! ...
II2II 7y ago
> Every human being should "do no harm". The thing is, you get no money by looking out for others. (...) I don't know how to fix this though. Ensuring that people are rewarded for contributing to the social good and penalized for harming it would be a good start. While I am hesitant to suggest that money is the solution, paying enough for a modest standard of living would be nice. For those who are typically paid enough, such as teachers and nurses, ensuring that they are not exploited for their compassion would be a good start. For those who have ambitions for wealth and status, rewarding meaningful contributions and penalizing harmful ones would be a start. Look at the early days of computers and communications technologies. People got rich and empires were built, yet positive contributions to society were made. The later stages of any given industry, which IT is likely in today, seems to be dominated by the consolidation of wealth and power. That does more to steal away from society than anything else. As for the ones stuck in the middle, the ones who simply want to "do no harm", compensate them properly and give them the authority to act when they see harm. Adjust the tax system so that it encourages wealth to trickle down rather than up. Protect labor in meaningful ways when they speak out about injustices or incentives to do wrong. Yes, none of these suggestions are concrete. Some of them may not even work. Yet there are plenty of approaches that should be considered before resigning to hopelessness.
SkyBelow 7y ago
>The thing is, you get no money by looking out for others. And our definitions of harm can greatly differ, to the point where two groups honestly believe the other group is doing harm. While some of these cases can be resolved with more knowledge, some of them depend upon ethical guidelines that are entirely subjective.

by _def 7y ago

neon_me 7y ago

> The thing is, you get no money by looking out for others. It's hard to see the (short-term) benefits. This is the main problem of us. We perceive money and short-term goals (self) over of anything else. To fix the lack of personal responsibility in broader part of ecosystem is crucial. Therefore, sort of Hippocratic Oath for software and hardware developers/managers and education to behave in moral constraints is important. We are playing bigger role in shaping how future on Earth(and other planets) will looks like. So it will be beneficial and important to signup for ethical codex. I am surprised that we are not already doing it - globally. How come? How is that possible?

Nasrudith 7y ago
You said why already in the second sentence of the first paragraph - there is nothing to be gained from it and the codexes wouldn't be binding and the last thing we need is to give liars more tools to feign trustworthiness.
- neon_me 7y ago
  Ok, so what is the purpose of Hippocratic Oath? Why we have such things as Bar Association for lawyers? Statements are important - at least you have to fight with your inner feeling that "you lied" to all when it actual status quo its just "matter of perspective" bending morals
_def 7y ago
The nearest thing that comes to my mind are the hacker ethics from the CCC https://www.ccc.de/en/hackerethics https://www.ccc.de/en/hackerethics Of course it doesn't really cover the points from the article but think it's sort of related. I think the article really clashes with our everyday life. If there are devs for instance which think they have a shitty paid job and are bombarded with projects and tasks, I don't blame them for doing low quality work. Because there are companies that exactly want that. Because it's cheaper. And remember kids, cheaper is aaaalways better! ...

II2II 7y ago

> Every human being should "do no harm". The thing is, you get no money by looking out for others. (...) I don't know how to fix this though. Ensuring that people are rewarded for contributing to the social good and penalized for harming it would be a good start. While I am hesitant to suggest that money is the solution, paying enough for a modest standard of living would be nice. For those who are typically paid enough, such as teachers and nurses, ensuring that they are not exploited for their compassion would be a good start. For those who have ambitions for wealth and status, rewarding meaningful contributions and penalizing harmful ones would be a start. Look at the early days of computers and communications technologies. People got rich and empires were built, yet positive contributions to society were made. The later stages of any given industry, which IT is likely in today, seems to be dominated by the consolidation of wealth and power. That does more to steal away from society than anything else. As for the ones stuck in the middle, the ones who simply want to "do no harm", compensate them properly and give them the authority to act when they see harm. Adjust the tax system so that it encourages wealth to trickle down rather than up. Protect labor in meaningful ways when they speak out about injustices or incentives to do wrong. Yes, none of these suggestions are concrete. Some of them may not even work. Yet there are plenty of approaches that should be considered before resigning to hopelessness.

SkyBelow 7y ago

>The thing is, you get no money by looking out for others. And our definitions of harm can greatly differ, to the point where two groups honestly believe the other group is doing harm. While some of these cases can be resolved with more knowledge, some of them depend upon ethical guidelines that are entirely subjective.