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I think downvotes are fundamentally broken. If upvotes are agree/approval and downvotes are disagree/disapproval then why are downvotes used for automatic mode

I think downvotes are fundamentally broken. If upvotes are agree/approval and downvotes are disagree/disapproval then why are downvotes used for automatic moderation too? It is a problem in this site and other sites that double-use downvote to mean two different, contradictory, things. The strange thing about HK in particular is that they already offer a "flag" button. If the flag was dedicated to moderation and the downvote dedicated to discussion, the site would be fine, but downvote will auto-hide comments, grey them, shadowban people in certain cases (like green accounts), and is weighed during flagging/dead-ing (e.g. one flag for a grey comment Vs. multiple flags for others). I think it has a chilling effect. People are hesitant to post controversial opinions no matter how well written because the consequences (via simple downvotes) can be problematic to even accounts in otherwise good standing. In an ideal world a site should have an upvote/downvote and flag button. The first two should be dedicated to discussion only, and having a controversial viewpoint should be noteable but not punishable. The latter (flag) should be for comments thats that violate the site's guidelines or community standards (e.g. -isms, trolling, insulting, etc). PS - Part of the problem right now is that for comments the flag button is hidden below the fold. Many new users may never see it.

hellofunk 7y ago
To be honest, I don’t think Hong Kong has anything to do with it.
i_cant_speel 7y ago
Do you really feel that people here don't allow opposing viewpoints? IMO that is an area where Hacker News shines, especially in comparison to sites like Reddit. I rarely see, respectful, well thought out counter-viewpoints downvoted simply for disagreeing.
- brokenmachine 7y ago
  I have showdead on, and often see dead comments where I don't understand what the problem is with them. I'd say it's about 10% of dead comments where I would understand if they were just dimmed, but they're dead so you can't upvote to help resurrect them, and you can't reply.
  - yesenadam 7y ago
    If you have the time, could you link to a few (or lots) of these dead comments with absolutely nothing wrong with them? Thanks.
    - brokenmachine 7y ago
      This is just the first one I thought of, not the greatest example but should serve to demonstrate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20600442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20600442 >And then when people will inevitably start wanting better home security (I'm thinking armored doors and such, not hackable "smart" locks) as a consequence of this, the government will start whining about not being able to break into people's homes as easily when they look for someone. It's not aggressive or rude, and it does add something to the discussion (some other possible consequences of the things being discussed). No reason IMO for that comment to be dead. I'll try to add more as I see them. edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599625 >My federal tax bill is $50k per year. That means I'm spending $50k/year for my government to murder people, and spy on me, in my name. How sociopathic is that? Our money is being used to oppress is, and most people are just like "wow! neat-o tech!" edit2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20615725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20615725 >Where does using an ally's spy agency to circumvent being unable to target US Citizens fall on that list? edit3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20583625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20583625 >1. Expose the Government. 2. Run from the Government. 3. Profit. I thought that one was funny. edit4: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20542119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20542119 >If it means free video sharing (YouTube), photo hosting and messaging (Facebook), and career network (LinkedIn), yes, I'll gladly pay the small probability I'm collateral damage of a spy game. I personally disagree with this opinion, but I don't see why it should be a dead comment. They are just saying that they are willing to accept the risks in exchange for the convenience. Not a popular position on hn, but in truth going by the success of companies that sell our data, this must actually be the majority opinion of our population. All of the memorable unfairly dead comments to me are ones that some people may disagree with, but do seem to add something to the discussion. Looks to me like [dead] is being used to disagree.
Fjolsvith 7y ago
> People are hesitant to post controversial opinions no matter how well written because the consequences I post controversial opinions quite a bit and get downvoted regularly. However, my well-liked comments and posts generally cause my karma to increase over time despite this.
non-entity 7y ago
> I think downvotes are fundamentally broken. How do they even work? I see posts get downvoted, but no downvote button.
- Jemaclus 7y ago
  You have to have a certain amount of karma before you can downvote.

hellofunk 7y ago

To be honest, I don’t think Hong Kong has anything to do with it.

i_cant_speel 7y ago

Do you really feel that people here don't allow opposing viewpoints? IMO that is an area where Hacker News shines, especially in comparison to sites like Reddit. I rarely see, respectful, well thought out counter-viewpoints downvoted simply for disagreeing.

brokenmachine 7y ago
I have showdead on, and often see dead comments where I don't understand what the problem is with them. I'd say it's about 10% of dead comments where I would understand if they were just dimmed, but they're dead so you can't upvote to help resurrect them, and you can't reply.
- yesenadam 7y ago
  If you have the time, could you link to a few (or lots) of these dead comments with absolutely nothing wrong with them? Thanks.
  - brokenmachine 7y ago
    This is just the first one I thought of, not the greatest example but should serve to demonstrate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20600442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20600442 >And then when people will inevitably start wanting better home security (I'm thinking armored doors and such, not hackable "smart" locks) as a consequence of this, the government will start whining about not being able to break into people's homes as easily when they look for someone. It's not aggressive or rude, and it does add something to the discussion (some other possible consequences of the things being discussed). No reason IMO for that comment to be dead. I'll try to add more as I see them. edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599625 >My federal tax bill is $50k per year. That means I'm spending $50k/year for my government to murder people, and spy on me, in my name. How sociopathic is that? Our money is being used to oppress is, and most people are just like "wow! neat-o tech!" edit2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20615725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20615725 >Where does using an ally's spy agency to circumvent being unable to target US Citizens fall on that list? edit3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20583625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20583625 >1. Expose the Government. 2. Run from the Government. 3. Profit. I thought that one was funny. edit4: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20542119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20542119 >If it means free video sharing (YouTube), photo hosting and messaging (Facebook), and career network (LinkedIn), yes, I'll gladly pay the small probability I'm collateral damage of a spy game. I personally disagree with this opinion, but I don't see why it should be a dead comment. They are just saying that they are willing to accept the risks in exchange for the convenience. Not a popular position on hn, but in truth going by the success of companies that sell our data, this must actually be the majority opinion of our population. All of the memorable unfairly dead comments to me are ones that some people may disagree with, but do seem to add something to the discussion. Looks to me like [dead] is being used to disagree.

Fjolsvith 7y ago

> People are hesitant to post controversial opinions no matter how well written because the consequences I post controversial opinions quite a bit and get downvoted regularly. However, my well-liked comments and posts generally cause my karma to increase over time despite this.

non-entity 7y ago

> I think downvotes are fundamentally broken. How do they even work? I see posts get downvoted, but no downvote button.

Jemaclus 7y ago
You have to have a certain amount of karma before you can downvote.