4 ms·

The contract sucks shit that's why

by qwsxyh 7y ago

nordsieck 7y ago
> The contract sucks shit that's why All those people were free to buy unsubsidized phones elsewhere. They knew exactly what they were getting into when they signed up.
- thedaemon 7y ago
  You give them too much credit. People don't read phone contracts and few people even know what an unlocked phone is.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    Aka the system is working exactly as designed.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    And even if you can read them, most people can’t comprehend them. And even if you can, there can be bits that aren’t enforceable and effectively void.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  Counterpoint: carriers don't always make it easy to unlock your phone even if they allow you to do so as per the contract. It can involve lots of back and forth with clueless monkeys in their customer service department. There's also the issue of legitimately buying/acquiring a phone, finding it to be locked and having no idea which carrier it is locked to nor how to go about getting it unlocked. It isn't an easy process even if everything is legitimate and the phone was acquired legally and not stolen nor its IMEI/ESN being banned anywhere. The truth is, phone unlocking is designed to be a shit-show on purpose and practices like these are just a natural consequence of that. Make unlocking straightforward and user-friendly (or just don't lock phones to begin with) and the market for these illegal things will dry up significantly.
  - nordsieck 7y ago
    > There's also the issue of legitimately buying/acquiring a phone, finding it to be locked and having no idea which carrier it is locked to nor how to go about getting it unlocked. It isn't an easy process even if everything is legitimate and the phone was acquired legally and not stolen nor its IMEI/ESN being banned anywhere. It sounds like you're talking about buying a used phone. Sure - there's danger there. Danger which can be completely mitigated by buying at the owner's provider's store, and having an employee look up that info before giving over money. If you want to avoid all that business, it's really, really easy to just buy from the manufacturer. If you do that, they always come unlocked, not stolen and not banned. Broadly: locked phones suck. I would never buy one (unless it was used and on a network I'm already with). But I also know several people who cannot save money. At all. Subsidized phone plans are specifically tailored for those people. The subsidized experience will always be worse than strict ownership simply because incentives between the provider and the user are not aligned. But for those people who can't save money, I think this is the best option they have.
    - Nextgrid 7y ago
      Yes, there is danger, however it's artificially manufactured danger. There's no reason why the process should be so awful. If phone locking does need to exist (it doesn't but that's besides the point), why is there still no webpages on manufacturers' or carriers' websites allowing me to quickly check whether a phone is locked based on its IMEI and whether it can be unlocked (so whether the previous account is in good standing and the device isn't stolen)? I remember knowingly buying a locked iPad. Even figuring out the carrier it was locked to was difficult (why isn't that displayed on the system information screen or on the error when you use a different SIM?) and Apple were of no help either. I bought it because I knew this bullshit and decided to go through it anyway but it isn't a pleasant experience and shouldn't be considered normal. There's also the issue of recycling and e-waste. You're telling me to buy new, which is fair but what about the countless locked devices that are perfectly functional and yet stuck in limbo because nobody can figure out how to unlock them (even if they are otherwise not stolen and the previous account was in good standing)? Should we just accept that these devices are essentially bricked and can go for scrap because it's not worth the trouble to unlock them?
- korethr 7y ago
  I would argue that that your latter assertion is not the case, at least not here in the US. When I got my first cellphone in the mid-00s, you bought your phone on an installment plan from the carrier as part of the service contract, the purchase installments were rolled up with your and service fees, and that's the way the world worked, regardless of which carrier you chose. Bringing your own device was not a thing. It wasn't until later that I learned that cellphones could exist independent of their carrier networks and be unlocked therefrom; that one (in theory) could purchase a phone somewhere else, and then bring it to the the carrier of one's choice to be configured to interface with that network. And I only learned of that fact because I am nerd who likes to learn as much as he can about anything he becomes involved in. Most people aren't nerds or have nerd-like tendencies. Most people simply want a magic rectangle so they can have Snapchat and Twitter in their pocket. The carriers do little to advertise the fact purchasing phones independently is even an option. So I'd say, no, most people don't know what they're getting into when they sign up. And lest you say that said terms are right there in the contract, while true, be honest, when was the last time you carefully read and understood all 40-pages of the EULA when you have a more pressing problem to solve? I suspect even you commonly simply click the "I Agree" to get that damn boilerplate out of the way so you can Buy The Thing already.
isostatic 7y ago
So don't sign it.
mieseratte 7y ago
Then buy an unlocked phone.

The contract sucks shit that's why

by qwsxyh 7y ago

The contract sucks shit that's why

> The contract sucks shit that's why All those people were free to buy unsubsidized phones elsewhere. They knew exactly what they were getting into when they signed up.

thedaemon 7y ago
You give them too much credit. People don't read phone contracts and few people even know what an unlocked phone is.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  Aka the system is working exactly as designed.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  And even if you can read them, most people can’t comprehend them. And even if you can, there can be bits that aren’t enforceable and effectively void.
Nextgrid 7y ago
Counterpoint: carriers don't always make it easy to unlock your phone even if they allow you to do so as per the contract. It can involve lots of back and forth with clueless monkeys in their customer service department. There's also the issue of legitimately buying/acquiring a phone, finding it to be locked and having no idea which carrier it is locked to nor how to go about getting it unlocked. It isn't an easy process even if everything is legitimate and the phone was acquired legally and not stolen nor its IMEI/ESN being banned anywhere. The truth is, phone unlocking is designed to be a shit-show on purpose and practices like these are just a natural consequence of that. Make unlocking straightforward and user-friendly (or just don't lock phones to begin with) and the market for these illegal things will dry up significantly.
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > There's also the issue of legitimately buying/acquiring a phone, finding it to be locked and having no idea which carrier it is locked to nor how to go about getting it unlocked. It isn't an easy process even if everything is legitimate and the phone was acquired legally and not stolen nor its IMEI/ESN being banned anywhere. It sounds like you're talking about buying a used phone. Sure - there's danger there. Danger which can be completely mitigated by buying at the owner's provider's store, and having an employee look up that info before giving over money. If you want to avoid all that business, it's really, really easy to just buy from the manufacturer. If you do that, they always come unlocked, not stolen and not banned. Broadly: locked phones suck. I would never buy one (unless it was used and on a network I'm already with). But I also know several people who cannot save money. At all. Subsidized phone plans are specifically tailored for those people. The subsidized experience will always be worse than strict ownership simply because incentives between the provider and the user are not aligned. But for those people who can't save money, I think this is the best option they have.
  - Nextgrid 7y ago
    Yes, there is danger, however it's artificially manufactured danger. There's no reason why the process should be so awful. If phone locking does need to exist (it doesn't but that's besides the point), why is there still no webpages on manufacturers' or carriers' websites allowing me to quickly check whether a phone is locked based on its IMEI and whether it can be unlocked (so whether the previous account is in good standing and the device isn't stolen)? I remember knowingly buying a locked iPad. Even figuring out the carrier it was locked to was difficult (why isn't that displayed on the system information screen or on the error when you use a different SIM?) and Apple were of no help either. I bought it because I knew this bullshit and decided to go through it anyway but it isn't a pleasant experience and shouldn't be considered normal. There's also the issue of recycling and e-waste. You're telling me to buy new, which is fair but what about the countless locked devices that are perfectly functional and yet stuck in limbo because nobody can figure out how to unlock them (even if they are otherwise not stolen and the previous account was in good standing)? Should we just accept that these devices are essentially bricked and can go for scrap because it's not worth the trouble to unlock them?
korethr 7y ago
I would argue that that your latter assertion is not the case, at least not here in the US. When I got my first cellphone in the mid-00s, you bought your phone on an installment plan from the carrier as part of the service contract, the purchase installments were rolled up with your and service fees, and that's the way the world worked, regardless of which carrier you chose. Bringing your own device was not a thing. It wasn't until later that I learned that cellphones could exist independent of their carrier networks and be unlocked therefrom; that one (in theory) could purchase a phone somewhere else, and then bring it to the the carrier of one's choice to be configured to interface with that network. And I only learned of that fact because I am nerd who likes to learn as much as he can about anything he becomes involved in. Most people aren't nerds or have nerd-like tendencies. Most people simply want a magic rectangle so they can have Snapchat and Twitter in their pocket. The carriers do little to advertise the fact purchasing phones independently is even an option. So I'd say, no, most people don't know what they're getting into when they sign up. And lest you say that said terms are right there in the contract, while true, be honest, when was the last time you carefully read and understood all 40-pages of the EULA when you have a more pressing problem to solve? I suspect even you commonly simply click the "I Agree" to get that damn boilerplate out of the way so you can Buy The Thing already.

isostatic 7y ago

So don't sign it.

mieseratte 7y ago

Then buy an unlocked phone.