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I've also turned down countless Amazon interview offers. In fact, I don't get how I'm still on their recruitment lists after asking several times to be removed.

• ses1984 7y ago
  How many friends do you have who worked for a company more than 5 years? Work for Amazon for 2 years, learn a lot, get paid a lot, move on.
  • philsnow 7y ago
    Except the vast majority of your equity award, which itself makes up the vast majority of your total compensation at Amazon as an engineer, vests in your third and fourth years. Your first and second years you vest 5% and 15% (reportedly).
    • praneshp 7y ago
      Being an intern is a huge bonus here. My wife got a decent equity grant under the terrible 5/15/../.. plan, but also a 20k cash bonus for each of the first two years for being a returning intern. This makes it very attractive to quit after two years, imo
      • rifung 7y ago
        I don't think you need to be a returning intern to get the cash bonus. At least I got one without being an intern
      • inlined 7y ago
        And yet Facebook offered $50k for retuning interns on their first year. This was 5 years ago when I was an intern manager.
        • praneshp 7y ago
          That's nice! In the time I've been in the industry, fb has generally been considered a better payer than amazon, I think. Would you agree? I was just trying to say that the amazon vesting percentage doesn't adversely affect a returning intern's total first/second year comp.
    • mrep 7y ago
      You get cash bonuses the first two years to make up for that so your total comp doesn't actually change that much.
    • lawnchair_larry 7y ago
      You get a first and second year signing bonus that is equal to the total comp target that you’d have with your 3rd and 4th year stock, so it’s the same thing.
  • algaeontoast 7y ago
    Amazon benefits are shit and you generally can't negotiate a raise within 2 years. Generally, you're not really off the chopping block until you're an SDEIII or entered as an SDEIII and performed "above the bar" for at least 1.5 years or a requisite number of quarterly reviews.
    • ses1984 7y ago
      Shit compared to what? If you think Amazon benefits for software engineers are shit you should check where the surface of your bubble is. There's a big world outside it.
  • mountainofdeath 7y ago
    Amazon does not even pay a lot. It's 80% of everyone at best (yes, including the grossly overweight restricted stock units). Amazon (among others) imports legions of new-graduates and mid-level engineers from oversees on a variety of visas, pays them the local wage but in the US. If you leave the company for any reason, you have something like 7 days to pack up and go home. It's modern indentured servitude.
    • barry-cotter 7y ago
      80% of the other FAANG companies is at least double what most developers make, right, at mid career? https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Amazon/Google/Facebook https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Amazon/Google/Facebook has Amazon at 116K, Google we 123K and Facebook at 112K, just cash for all three, not including bonus or stock, for entry level employees. Paying Chinese employees Chinese wages, but in America, would be both hella illegal and very obvious.
      • ses1984 7y ago
        Thank you for pulling out the data. That's a cool site.
• twox2 7y ago
  "quit within 5 years" is a poor indicator since most tech has much quick turnover.
• notus 7y ago
  I've never worked at a tech job for more than 5 years so I'm not sure that is a great metric.
• zippergz 7y ago
  There is no such thing as a "recruitment list" to be removed from, unless you remove all traces of yourself from the internet. Sourcers don't work from a shared list. Also, you might be surprised to hear how often people will say "no" at one point, and later say "yes." Circumstances change. Asking again later works.
  • kkapelon 7y ago
    There is certainly a recruitment list. I get emails from Amazon that start with the sentence "We already know that you applied in 2012, do you want to try again?" or something similar. I have asked twice to remove me from their applicant database.
    • alexbanks 7y ago
      Not sure it works the way you're thinking. Obviously they keep a record of everyone that interviews, but I seriously doubt they look at that list before deciding to email you. There is no list of candidates to remove yourself from, as every recruiter will just troll github/linkedin/facebook/twitter and email you.
  • ethagnawl 7y ago
    > Sourcers don't work from a shared list. Presumably they do have a referral database, though. I can't remember the exact verbiage, and can't be bothered to go digging for the emails, but I know I've received several similar solicits after asking to be removed from their referral pipeline.
    • benburleson 7y ago
      Amazon recruiters don't talk to each other at all. I actually applied for a position from a local ad, and shortly heard from a recruiter. I assumed it was in reference to my application, but it turns out it wasn't and this recruiter had no positions availably locally (only in Seattle). It's a shit-show.
      • 7y ago
• shados 7y ago
  > Given all my friends that worked for them, almost all have quit within 5 years. 5 years is pretty darn high by tech company standard, as people already mentioned. Partly because of the culture of "you have to jump ship to make more money and promotions", but even the most employee friendly company will barely edge that, just because software engineers have a huge "grass is greener" syndrome.
  • crooked-v 7y ago
    >just because software engineers have a huge "grass is greener" syndrome "Grass is greener" is a strange label to use for the ability of even mediocre developers to get $50K+ raises by switching jobs, while the industry as a whole remains myopic about giving comparable pay increases to existing employees.
    • whatshisface 7y ago
      The grass is greener from the employer's perspective, which is why they manage their HR with a negative risk premium.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • IloveHN84 7y ago
      Yeah, it's really rare that the company where you work for more than 5 years gives you a $50K+ raise, if you get 5k or 10K you are already at the top. But you are invaluable, because of all the stuff you've learned and can do.. leaving will mean bigger costs
    • shados 7y ago
      I said even at company friendly companies. Basically you'll see this happen even at companies where you CANT just switch job to get a raise (eg: companies that give out RSUs and had huge stock value bumps, making it unlikely you can get the same elsewhere). I've seen it happen many times. People who got promotions after promotions and are paid absurd amounts, and after 2-3 years will jump ship anyway, often with a pay cut to join their friend's little startup. Which is fine, its their choice and if they like that better, they certainly can go for it. That doesn't change that it's basically cultural at this point. Software engineers jump ship really quickly, even if everything's perfect (which, admittedly, is rare). I've done it many times myself.
• scarface74 7y ago
  Given their abysmal warehouse management, it's no surprise they have the second highest employee turnover out of all Fortune 500 companies[1]. Do you think any of the tech companies would treat their blue collar workers any better? It just so happens that all of the products produced by Google, Microsoft and Apple that need a lot of blue collar workers are done by contractors in a different country. I bet none of them think they are being treated especially well. I bet if any of the other companies had to include their outsourced workers, they would be in the same boat.
  • karmakaze 7y ago
    I've also heard bad things about white-collar work in their logistics area.
  • balls187 7y ago
    > Do you think any of the tech companies would treat their blue collar workers any better? Tech typically skirts around this by using contractor/contingent staff.
    • scarface74 7y ago
      That’s kind of what I said.... it just so happens that all of the products produced by Google, Microsoft and Apple that need a lot of blue collar workers are done by contractors in a different country.
      • balls187 7y ago
        Yep, wasn't disagreeing; adding confirmation.
  • pavel_lishin 7y ago
    > Do you think any of the tech companies would treat their blue collar workers any better? Okay, but we're talking about what Amazon is doing now, not how other hypothetical companies may or may not treat potential employees.
• zeropnc 7y ago
  It treats its white collar workers like adults, not privileged overly sensitive babies. Only in the Silicon Valley is that considered “dirt”.
  • tdb7893 7y ago
    The pride some people have in their ability to tolerate bad conditions is a little silly. I don't understand how you can look down on people who want a better work environment
    • inlined 7y ago
      I was brainwashed in Windows that the grit made me a better developer. They’d always say “a Windows X is an <other org> X+1”. They also convinced employees that if they ever left the org they’d never get back in because they’d lose the cache and not be assumed to have the competency of your level.
• oarabbus_ 7y ago
  > Given all my friends that worked for them, almost all have quit within 5 years. You lost me here. I don't know many people who have stayed in a tech company over 5 years. Also, if you're just a SWE at the same place for 5 years (as opposed to moving up the ranks), many people I know would view that as a black mark.
• nonbirithm 7y ago
  As a counterpoint I know one good friend who has worked for Amazon for 4 years with three internal transfers and he's very self aware of his work-life balance. Originally he was in an org with very high operational load so he described being too exhausted to do anything after work, but he switched to a different org after a year and is comfortable with his new position. I haven't personally experienced Amazon's culture however.
• draw_down 7y ago
  Cue the “it depends which team you’re on!” brigade, as if that excuses anything. Not to mention many people don’t get to pick their team when they get in the door, or at least that is my understanding. Even if you did get to pick, who would pick an obviously bad one?
• 98codes 7y ago
  My doctor is in South Lake Union in Seattle, near a number of Amazon buildings. She hates Amazon with a passion, after seeing so many people in their 20s with health issues they shouldn't have until their 40s or 50s. There's no chance I'd entertain so much as a conversation with a recruiter.
  • sizzle 7y ago
    That's pretty interesting, any idea what issues she is seeing that's atypical for this age group?
• cbzbc 7y ago
  The first and only time I interviewed at Amazon, the interviewing engineer was so obviously stressed that he was shaking from it. As the interview itself was fairly light weight I assumed it was due to his work -- nothing I've heard from current/former Amazoners has changed my mind.
• Twirrim 7y ago
  > Given their abysmal warehouse management, it's no surprise they have the second highest employee turnover out of all Fortune 500 companies It's worth emphasising that Amazon employs a LOT of seasonal employees in the warehouses, and there are a really large number of those warehouses. It's a terrific number of staff that are around for 2 months, during various peak times of the year. Not because they're burned out, injured or whatever, but just because the work isn't there for them at the time. (I'm not generally disagreeing with the rest of your point. Been there, done that, got burned out by it after a couple of years)
• steelframe 7y ago
  > In fact, I don't get how I'm still on their recruitment lists after asking several times to be removed. My strategy has been to completely ignore emails from Amazon recruiters, under the assumption that getting a reply from an email address will immediately prompt the recruiter to check a box in their internal tool indicating "You can actually reach them here!" It's the same strategy with spammers. Clicking "Unsubscribe" often just serves to confirm that there's a real human being reading stuff sent to that address.
• Thorrez 7y ago
  NDA? The article is about a non-compete, not an NDA.