3 ms·

> I’m no longer sure I agree with them. the problem is that the alternative is, basically, a white-list of approved ideas. Who makes this white-list? That's t

by serf 7y ago

> I’m no longer sure I agree with them. the problem is that the alternative is, basically, a white-list of approved ideas. Who makes this white-list? That's the issue with wholesale censorship. A system like that will get gamed as soon as the political winds change one way or another.

sokoloff 7y ago
Exactly. It’s trivially easy to defend speech that we like. The difficult thing is defending the right to make speech the content of which we dislike or disagree with.
king_magic 7y ago
I think it’s more like a black-list. Nazis? White supremacy? Pretty obviously black-list. Is nazizm fine if the political winds change a bit? No, of course not. And I’m not saying “blanket censor an understanding of these things in historical context”. That would be insane. But I am saying - just maybe, consider stopping giving free, entirely unregulated platforms for black-list extremists and terrorists to spread their message.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  One of the shooters wasn't a white supremacist. Will you add his ideas to the blacklist too?
  - bart_spoon 7y ago
    That shooter didn't post a manifesto to 8chan, and therefore didn't contribute to Cloudflare terminating their service, and therefore is entirely irrelevant to what is being discussed.
    - raxxorrax 7y ago
      I disagree that this is irrelevant to find the reasons why these shootings occur. After every tragedy people look for a scapegoat. I don't see anything worthwhile coming out of it to sanction anyone beside the perpetrators.
cm2187 7y ago
Particularly given that a large part of the left and of the medias uses the term "racist", "alt-right" or "facist" very liberally. Worrying about slippery slope isn't rhetorical, we can see people actively oiling up that slope right now.
cartlidge 7y ago
I think most people can see that there's a huge gulf between "everything is lawful" and "the government regulates ideas and risks doing so in their favor". Most people accept that you cannot say "how unfortunate it would be for him if Jack ate seafood tonight" to your Mafia henchmen. Nor can you say "we will storm parliament at dawn using these weapons" if you are part of a plot to replace the state with a capitalist anarchy. And in the same manner, it seems that there are plenty of laws in place already against saying "if white people are to defend ourselves and survive as a race, our immune system must go to work" in an 8chan manifesto. But that's different than saying "Jack has betrayed me", "representative democracy is defective and must be replaced by capitalist anarchy" or "the white race is superior; non-whites are traitors and should be dealt with harshly; vote for me". (Whether a text advocates violence cannot necessarily be reduced to a few words, as I hope my first example demonstrates. The context in which the words are uttered and the interpretation the speaker can reasonably intend are relevant. Fortunately, no legal system has been replaced by a computer program, but are generally interpreted by intelligent human beings.) Free speech absolutism was never intended by the Voltaire or the American founding fathers - as can be seen by their other actions. It is a recent populist view without warrant of careful analysis. I support free speech; but I do not support free speech absolutism.

by serf 7y ago

sokoloff 7y ago

Exactly. It’s trivially easy to defend speech that we like. The difficult thing is defending the right to make speech the content of which we dislike or disagree with.

king_magic 7y ago

I think it’s more like a black-list. Nazis? White supremacy? Pretty obviously black-list. Is nazizm fine if the political winds change a bit? No, of course not. And I’m not saying “blanket censor an understanding of these things in historical context”. That would be insane. But I am saying - just maybe, consider stopping giving free, entirely unregulated platforms for black-list extremists and terrorists to spread their message.

raxxorrax 7y ago
One of the shooters wasn't a white supremacist. Will you add his ideas to the blacklist too?
- bart_spoon 7y ago
  That shooter didn't post a manifesto to 8chan, and therefore didn't contribute to Cloudflare terminating their service, and therefore is entirely irrelevant to what is being discussed.
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    I disagree that this is irrelevant to find the reasons why these shootings occur. After every tragedy people look for a scapegoat. I don't see anything worthwhile coming out of it to sanction anyone beside the perpetrators.

cm2187 7y ago

Particularly given that a large part of the left and of the medias uses the term "racist", "alt-right" or "facist" very liberally. Worrying about slippery slope isn't rhetorical, we can see people actively oiling up that slope right now.

cartlidge 7y ago

I think most people can see that there's a huge gulf between "everything is lawful" and "the government regulates ideas and risks doing so in their favor". Most people accept that you cannot say "how unfortunate it would be for him if Jack ate seafood tonight" to your Mafia henchmen. Nor can you say "we will storm parliament at dawn using these weapons" if you are part of a plot to replace the state with a capitalist anarchy. And in the same manner, it seems that there are plenty of laws in place already against saying "if white people are to defend ourselves and survive as a race, our immune system must go to work" in an 8chan manifesto. But that's different than saying "Jack has betrayed me", "representative democracy is defective and must be replaced by capitalist anarchy" or "the white race is superior; non-whites are traitors and should be dealt with harshly; vote for me". (Whether a text advocates violence cannot necessarily be reduced to a few words, as I hope my first example demonstrates. The context in which the words are uttered and the interpretation the speaker can reasonably intend are relevant. Fortunately, no legal system has been replaced by a computer program, but are generally interpreted by intelligent human beings.) Free speech absolutism was never intended by the Voltaire or the American founding fathers - as can be seen by their other actions. It is a recent populist view without warrant of careful analysis. I support free speech; but I do not support free speech absolutism.