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Those always sounded like noble, wise words. And maybe they once were. But in age when white supremacy/fascism/nazism/strongman-leader-ism is rising again, I’m

Those always sounded like noble, wise words. And maybe they once were. But in age when white supremacy/fascism/nazism/strongman-leader-ism is rising again, I’m no longer sure I agree with them.

coldtea 7y ago
Because Voltaire's age was so peaceful and didn't have those things? (Voltaire didn't said it exactly, it's a later quote. But he said words to the same effect, and it's by itself a good quote).
- king_magic 7y ago
  Voltaire didn’t live in a time of algorithmically influenced news cycles. Things have changed a bit. He might no longer be right.
  - mcv 7y ago
    Aside from that, there's an important difference between expressing an opinion, and creating an atmosphere and culture of hate and/or violence. There are things you're not allowed to say because they endanger lives, like threatening people, blackmailing people, or slandering people. Spreading intolerance and hatred directed at specific demographic groups has also been shown to endanger those people, so banning that is absolutely defensible.
- ryanmercer 7y ago
  >Because Voltaire's age was so peaceful and didn't have those things? Voltaire wasn't a youth bullying youth to the point that they killed themselves. Voltaire wasn't a man sitting in his living room sexually harassing and shaming women in an organized effort after they are selected as a target by some random person online for blocking them after receiving dick pics. Voltaire wasn't encouraging anonymous strangers on the internet to make death threats to high profile persons.
serf 7y ago
> I’m no longer sure I agree with them. the problem is that the alternative is, basically, a white-list of approved ideas. Who makes this white-list? That's the issue with wholesale censorship. A system like that will get gamed as soon as the political winds change one way or another.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  Exactly. It’s trivially easy to defend speech that we like. The difficult thing is defending the right to make speech the content of which we dislike or disagree with.
- king_magic 7y ago
  I think it’s more like a black-list. Nazis? White supremacy? Pretty obviously black-list. Is nazizm fine if the political winds change a bit? No, of course not. And I’m not saying “blanket censor an understanding of these things in historical context”. That would be insane. But I am saying - just maybe, consider stopping giving free, entirely unregulated platforms for black-list extremists and terrorists to spread their message.
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    One of the shooters wasn't a white supremacist. Will you add his ideas to the blacklist too?
    - bart_spoon 7y ago
      That shooter didn't post a manifesto to 8chan, and therefore didn't contribute to Cloudflare terminating their service, and therefore is entirely irrelevant to what is being discussed.
      - raxxorrax 7y ago
        I disagree that this is irrelevant to find the reasons why these shootings occur. After every tragedy people look for a scapegoat. I don't see anything worthwhile coming out of it to sanction anyone beside the perpetrators.
gspetr 7y ago
Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- king_magic 7y ago
  And I think it’s fair to ask if those ideas, expressed hundreds of years ago, are still “100%-blanket-statement-correct”, or if they should ever be modified based on changing societal conditions. Blind faith in a political figure from several centuries ago is, to me, as ridiculous as blind faith in an imaginary magic sky deity.
- bart_spoon 7y ago
  Its probably problematic to be religiously dogmatic about applying quotes from historical figures from nearly three centuries ago about every possible modern context.
- konart 7y ago
  You might wanna read more about the circumstances when those words were said.
- whiteopinions 7y ago
  ...this was said in reference to being able to use the powers of legislature to serve the greater good despite private interests. It means the exact opposite of what you think it means.
BillyBadA 7y ago
Unfortunately they have the right to say what they will. They second they stop being just words and turn in to physical actions is when there is a problem.
raxxorrax 7y ago
Then you probably never shared these values to begin with. Voltaire probably wasn't someone that would give up freedoms out of fear of negligent threats.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  Unless we're talking about a different Voltaire, he did precisely that many times to avoid prison and execution...
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    Then you know more than I do. Because he was in prison for things he said multiple times if I remember correctly. But to the topic at hand, being sanctioned because of something you said is not what I would describe as a negligent threat.
Allower 7y ago
I think modernity doesn't mean these ideas are no longer valid, they simply require more precision in what we mean. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to use whatever business services you desire... negative vs. positive rights are distinctly different, it makes all the difference.

Those always sounded like noble, wise words. And maybe they once were. But in age when white supremacy/fascism/nazism/strongman-leader-ism is rising again, I’m no longer sure I agree with them.

coldtea 7y ago

Because Voltaire's age was so peaceful and didn't have those things? (Voltaire didn't said it exactly, it's a later quote. But he said words to the same effect, and it's by itself a good quote).

king_magic 7y ago
Voltaire didn’t live in a time of algorithmically influenced news cycles. Things have changed a bit. He might no longer be right.
- mcv 7y ago
  Aside from that, there's an important difference between expressing an opinion, and creating an atmosphere and culture of hate and/or violence. There are things you're not allowed to say because they endanger lives, like threatening people, blackmailing people, or slandering people. Spreading intolerance and hatred directed at specific demographic groups has also been shown to endanger those people, so banning that is absolutely defensible.
ryanmercer 7y ago
>Because Voltaire's age was so peaceful and didn't have those things? Voltaire wasn't a youth bullying youth to the point that they killed themselves. Voltaire wasn't a man sitting in his living room sexually harassing and shaming women in an organized effort after they are selected as a target by some random person online for blocking them after receiving dick pics. Voltaire wasn't encouraging anonymous strangers on the internet to make death threats to high profile persons.

serf 7y ago

> I’m no longer sure I agree with them. the problem is that the alternative is, basically, a white-list of approved ideas. Who makes this white-list? That's the issue with wholesale censorship. A system like that will get gamed as soon as the political winds change one way or another.

sokoloff 7y ago
Exactly. It’s trivially easy to defend speech that we like. The difficult thing is defending the right to make speech the content of which we dislike or disagree with.
king_magic 7y ago
I think it’s more like a black-list. Nazis? White supremacy? Pretty obviously black-list. Is nazizm fine if the political winds change a bit? No, of course not. And I’m not saying “blanket censor an understanding of these things in historical context”. That would be insane. But I am saying - just maybe, consider stopping giving free, entirely unregulated platforms for black-list extremists and terrorists to spread their message.
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  One of the shooters wasn't a white supremacist. Will you add his ideas to the blacklist too?
  - bart_spoon 7y ago
    That shooter didn't post a manifesto to 8chan, and therefore didn't contribute to Cloudflare terminating their service, and therefore is entirely irrelevant to what is being discussed.
    - raxxorrax 7y ago
      I disagree that this is irrelevant to find the reasons why these shootings occur. After every tragedy people look for a scapegoat. I don't see anything worthwhile coming out of it to sanction anyone beside the perpetrators.

gspetr 7y ago

Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

king_magic 7y ago
And I think it’s fair to ask if those ideas, expressed hundreds of years ago, are still “100%-blanket-statement-correct”, or if they should ever be modified based on changing societal conditions. Blind faith in a political figure from several centuries ago is, to me, as ridiculous as blind faith in an imaginary magic sky deity.
bart_spoon 7y ago
Its probably problematic to be religiously dogmatic about applying quotes from historical figures from nearly three centuries ago about every possible modern context.
konart 7y ago
You might wanna read more about the circumstances when those words were said.
whiteopinions 7y ago
...this was said in reference to being able to use the powers of legislature to serve the greater good despite private interests. It means the exact opposite of what you think it means.

BillyBadA 7y ago

Unfortunately they have the right to say what they will. They second they stop being just words and turn in to physical actions is when there is a problem.

raxxorrax 7y ago

Then you probably never shared these values to begin with. Voltaire probably wasn't someone that would give up freedoms out of fear of negligent threats.

gamblor956 7y ago
Unless we're talking about a different Voltaire, he did precisely that many times to avoid prison and execution...
- raxxorrax 7y ago
  Then you know more than I do. Because he was in prison for things he said multiple times if I remember correctly. But to the topic at hand, being sanctioned because of something you said is not what I would describe as a negligent threat.

Allower 7y ago

I think modernity doesn't mean these ideas are no longer valid, they simply require more precision in what we mean. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to use whatever business services you desire... negative vs. positive rights are distinctly different, it makes all the difference.