10 ms·

“Culture fit” is a two way street (2018)

255 points by greenyoda 7y ago

anyonecancode 7y ago
I think that like any category of evaluation, it works best if it's specific, consistent, and planned. Eg "Part of our culture is that we are collaborative; when we discussed code reviews and the candidate said they think they are a waste of time, that raised a flag because constructive and timely code reviews is an expectation for all our our engineers" That's pretty good. "Our culture is collaborative. This candidate didn't feel like they'd be a good fit here." That's not so good. Have an evaluation criteria going in. Rate candidates on the the same criteria. In debriefs, use specific examples from the interview to explain why you rated them as you did. Otherwise, it's just post-hoc rationalization of a snap emotional decision.
primeblue 7y ago
Decades of experience shown me this kind of attitude arises from being inexperienced and unprofessional
draw_down 7y ago
I think “culture” is a vague word that can be made to do a lot of work, a weasel word. Culture as a reason for not hiring someone strikes me a very suspicious. There should be a concrete reason the person is not fit for the work as part of a no-hire decision. “Culture” should be an emergent property of the people who work at the company.
mieseratte 7y ago
You’d be amazed at corporate ability to find excuses for their canaries departure. Sometimes to the degree that you could be forgiven for assuming their goal was downsizing without layoffs.
- hnzix 7y ago
  > downsizing without layoffs It's the most destructive form of downsizing for the company, as the competent staff who have options jump ship and only the dregs are left hanging around.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    And the good people will bad-mouth you later. Losing you further potential good hires.
m0zg 7y ago
Cuture fit is a blank check to fail a person's interview just because you didn't like them in the first 30 seconds. Short of the candidate showing some glaring interpersonal issues (I once had a guy who used the word "fuck" during his interview like 100 times) it is categorically impossible to establish in a 45 minute interview whether a person is actually a "fit" or not. So it's mostly a legitimized form of hiring bias. Too old? That's a poor "culture fit" right there.
- dehrmann 7y ago
  It can be, but I've seen very valid uses of it. Some cultures value openness more than others, top-down vs. bottom-up, well-defined roles vs. flexibility, big company vs. small.
- el_dev_hell 7y ago
  > Cuture fit is a blank check to fail a person's interview just because you didn't like them in the first 30 seconds. I hear this all the time. Yeah, that might be true in some cases, but it's also valid in quite a lot of instances (like the example you provided). > it is categorically impossible to establish in a 45 minute interview whether a person is actually a "fit" or not I've run/sat in on several trainwreck interviews over the years (for ad account manager roles and logistical analyst roles mostly). Here are a few examples of candidates that were perfect in every way until the interview based on culture fit: * The guy that mentioned he only traveled to Thailand because ladyboys do it better. * The guy that mentioned he wouldn't work with anyone that drank alcohol because it's "the retardant of the masses". Fair enough opinion. About 20% of our ad sales came from alcohol-related businesses. I asked if he would have a problem dealing with liquor businesses. He explained that wouldn't be a problem as long as they didn't ask if he drank. * I was sitting in on an interview with the Marketing Director for an account management gig on a Monday morning. We asked the candidate if she did anything noteworthy over the weekend. She told us she went dancing with her friend "Molly" at a music festival and laughed. * The analyst that mentioned he scrapes NSFW subreddits in his spare time and links throwaway accounts to main accounts based on comment history, similar subreddit crossover, posting times, and vernacular (his tool was pretty impressive -- it sent him an email whenever it had a hit with over 50% accuracy or something which he received during the interview).
bertil 7y ago
Absolutely. Azure? “We take care of technical debt as we go”? You don’t know your engineers retention off the top of your head, but half of the projects I’m supposed to interface with have lost their tech lead and you can’t replace any? I’ve asked a non-technical executive what is a rollback and they didn’t know? It’s not me, darling, it’s you.
stuntkite 7y ago
I'm self taught and have been doing this for 20 years. Most of that in a sort of survival serial startup mode that eventually stabilized into me having a clue around the time I turned 30. I got hired a few years ago for a senior dev/architect/ops + engineering manager position at a ~5 person startup despite the fact that I was "a bad culture fit" because most of the staff was phds or masters level educated. At the time I found it really offensive that they'd even say that. The CEO said in the same breath "I think hiring you is the closest thing I'll get to cloning myself." Talk about mixed signals! As it turns out, that assessment was solidly right. They were entrenched in policies and behavior that basically guaranteed a tragic failure. And because of those policies the rescue from mistakes always fell on my doorstep well past when it would be trivial to solve the problem. This created a horrifically unpredictable work environment. All and all, it was a growth experience and I probably gave the company a year of life it wouldn't have had otherwise. I would never take another job where that was said to me though.
golemiprague 7y ago
The thing is, homogenous teams perform better than diverse ones, contrary to the common agenda these days. But you can't say I want everybody in my team to be more or less same as me, same culture, same behavioural codes, same common sense and all those things that makes a team perform smoothly like a well oiled machine. So instead they invent all kind of terms and roundabout ways to get to the same results while preaching to the masses about diversity and all kind of nonsense like that.
- greenyoda 7y ago
  > homogenous teams perform better than diverse ones What evidence do you have for this, and how do you define "homogeneous"? (Homogeneous in terms of what attributes?) Maybe you've just been on teams where the people aren't very good at getting along with people who are different from themselves. For example, if adding a well-qualified woman to a team of men causes the team to lose productivity, that's probably a sign of immaturity in the team, not a problem with the new member.
  - golemiprague 7y ago
    What evidence you got to the contrary? I can't give evidence because it is not possible to prove or disprove, hence the problem with all this diversity propaganda, it is a religion, not a some scientific conclusion. But I can give examples of very homogenous societies or industries that succeeded beyond expectations. The funny thing is that unconsciously your example just prove my point. The tech industry is a phenomenal success and you know too well that it was mainly white (and some Asians) males who created and developed it. It is not without reason you bring this example of woman in a team. Japan or Korea is an example to a racially and culturally homogenous countries which succeeded. If you look at almost any new idea in industry, science or arts, it was always a group of like minded people, not very diverse racially or sexually or culturally that pushed it forward. From blues music to hip hop (black man), from the personal computer to social media (white man) from anime to gaming (Asian man) etc. Homogenous groups is great.
gopalv 7y ago
> Also, due to the continued rampant mistreatment of people under our visa situation (ranted about elsewhere), a lot of them have to put up with far more shit. That is perhaps the understatement within the whole article. The ability to push some people further than others before they tap out, results in an environment where that is the normal level of stress. And those who can survive it, but don't want to tend to be marked out as "problems", instead of acknowledging that the insanity is temporary and everyone should/will take a break to recover instead of just burning out one person at a time, while keeping the hiring pipeline trickling in to cover that.
- mr_toad 7y ago
  First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out ...
throwaway42688 7y ago
Throwaway account for obvious reasons. I’m mid-way through my first experience with this. Some warning flags to add for anyone wondering if it’s them or you: - You’re beginning to wonder if it’s you that’s crazy, despite successful previous roles. - Their conversation has moved from “we” to “I” (or “you” and “us”). - Your number of known unknowns (usually people- or business-based) suddenly spikes for no apparent reason - Other people become (comically) formulaic in their response to questions. - Feedback channels are quietly shut down because they’re “not really needed/too much process/etc” I’ve started thinking of it as “professional gaslighting”, though its motivations may not be that sinister. My main mistake was not listening to that feeling that “something is wrong”. It’s surprisingly prescient.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mpweiher 7y ago
  I've had that (the gaslighting) happen to me so many times. "You didn't do this assignment" "Er, yes I did, here it is" "Well, you didn't keep me up-to-date on it" "Er, here are my weekly status report e-mails" "But you know I don't read my e-mails" Huh? Another good one was the following: I had assigned one of my reports a task before going on vacation. During said vacation, my "manager" pulls said report from that task. Then afterwards dings me for that task not being completed. Huh? "We're not paying you your bonus" "Why?" "You have to know that yourself". "I do not, and no, that's not how this works" "I won't tell you" Fortunately that was in Germany, so not just crazy, but also illegal.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    You know that landlord who tried to keep your deposit by dinging you on everything, especially normal wear and tear? Yeah, I've caught managers doing the same thing. I may have opportunity to call them on it coming up.
  - DocTomoe 7y ago
    I'm intrigued: What part of German labour laws make it illegal to not tell you why your employer does not give you a voluntary payment (e.g.: A bonus)?
sixothree 7y ago
The company I work for definitely hires people who are not a "culture fit" and our company is better for it. People who bring different perspective make your products stronger.
- phaedryx 7y ago
  Huh, what would you say your company's culture is and why don't the people fit?
  - sixothree 7y ago
    Why the down-vote? Is it that hard to imagine?
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      The person replying to you isn’t necessarily the person down-voting you so don’t take it out on them!
      - sixothree 7y ago
        You are right.
- mhluongo 7y ago
  Then you have a loose, inclusive culture- right? That's not the case everywhere
  - sixothree 7y ago
    I'm proud of the people who are and have been a part of our team. For such a small company we do fairly well. And although there's little managers can do about it, we like to stay aware of cliques too. They are so corrosive. I believe that plays into what is described as "fit" as well.
- cwyers 7y ago
joe_the_user 7y ago
Any kind of "fit" should be a two-way street but it usually isn't (or maybe it's nine lane super highway one-direction and pitted gravel road in the other direction). They have lots of money that they might spend on your arguably good skill set. You have a bit of money you might use to hold out until one better fit comes along. They (for a sad portion of "they") can afford crappy "fits" in terms of competence if it flatters them in one or another fashions or a person shows a willingness to throw umpteen hours into the cause. What can you afford?
- tim58 7y ago
  > You have a bit of money you might use to hold out until one better fit comes along. > What can you afford? I've done contracting work in between W2 jobs. In the full swing of contracting I make ~25% more money but I prefer the stability and simplistically of working a full time salary position (guaranteed two paychecks a month, better health insurance, fully clocked out by 6pm). I absolutely won't go into a full time salary position unless the company and culture is a very good fit and the pay is competitive. If you know how to code and have something that proves you do (CS degree, work history, github etc) you should never feel stuck at one place. If a company isn't treating you with excellence you can make more money as an independent contractor.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Why Only 25% ? I just had to point out in the UK to a recruiter pitching me a short term contact at straight time instead of at contract rates is taking the piss.
- whateveracct 7y ago
  It's relatively easy to find another job in tech. You should always be aware that you can, in fact, peace out of the culture or a boss is shitty.
  - lacampbell 7y ago
    That's highly tied to geography
mrcactu5 7y ago
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerpendicularBisector.html http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerpendicularBisector.html
mharroun 7y ago
As someone who has built and led many engineering/product teams interviewing & evaluating for/on culture is super important. One key thing though is making sure everyone on the team understands our culture, and applies is somewhat fairly. Personally I define "culture" as following the values set by the company and the department. At my current place what are the core culture concepts we look out for (in a nutshell): - Valuing the delivery of functional & sustainable products over checking boxes or coming up with impressive/resume-building solutions - Everyone is expected to support, teach, and grow one another and everyone has something they can teach. - Valuing receiving & giving honest, direct, and valuable feedback. Many engineers would NOT fit this culture and in some interviews that becomes very apparent. We also send our values to our interviews before we bring them on site and reiterate them strongly before giving an offer letter... Thoes who have ignored this have never lasted to 6 months due to clashes with deliverables and with other team members.
tehjoker 7y ago
Companies don't have cultures. They have ways of demanding more of workers though propaganda. That's why this stuff always feels hollow and twisted.
- FooHentai 7y ago
  Companies stated culture != it's actual culture. The employees of any organization develop culture in how they interact (this is the real org culture), but some organizations also try and steer towards the culture they consider 'ideal' (the false culture you allude to). This attempt is often ham-fisted, and often fails.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ChuckMcM 7y ago
This is a great post and so spot on. At some point in my career my 'review prep' (which was the time I spent working on my own evaluation of my year at a company) became answering the question, "Do I still want to work here?" I categorize my 'review' in four sections (which are each rated at one of five levels, needs improvement, sometimes meets expectations, meets expectations, sometimes exceeds expectations, or consistently exceeds expectations) I start by reviewing how I'm being managed, I expect someone managing me to be clear in their expectations of my work product, provide resources when I have identified the need to complete jobs, can clearly articulate the problem I am expected to be solving, and can clearly articulate the criteria by which the solution will be evaluated. Second I review my co-workers, using a three axis evaluation, can I trust what they say to be accurate/honest, can I count on them to meet their commitments, and are they willing to teach me when I don't understand something and conversely learn when their is something they do not know. Third I review what level of support do I get to do my job. Am I provided with a workspace where I can get work done? Do have have the equipment I need to do what is being asked? Is my commute conducive to the hours required? And finally and most important, does this job allow me to balance work obligations and non-work obligations? Fourth I review whether or not the company mission, ethics, and culture is still one that I wish to be a part of. Am I proud of the company's mission? Do I believe that the leadership will make ethical calls even if doing so would mean less profit margin? Can I relate to and am I compatible with the values that my co-workers espouse and the actions they take? (this is the "company culture" theme, is it still a company that fits me culturally) A company that receives lower than a 3.0 rating I put on a 90 day "company improvement plan" (CIP). I bring issues to the leadership who are in a position to address the situations that I've found wanting and try to secure their commitment to change. If after 90 days they haven't been able to (if they choose not to they're done right away), then I "fire" the company and work to process my exit as expeditiously as possible.
- stuntkite 7y ago
  This is a much more streamlined version of the way I try to approach employment. I'm totally going to borrow this. Thanks!
- j2kun 7y ago
  This comment has prompted me to think more (and more clearly) about how I would evaluate the company I work for. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
billsix 7y ago
> Look at a statement of equivalence. You might say that "A is equal to B" or "A == B". There are two "flows" going on there: A has to match up with B, sure, but B also has to match up with A. Weird way to describe the symmetric property of equality from discrete math 201
- rachelbythebay 7y ago
  Math? Me? Not so much. If it sounds like some profound theorem then I assure you it’s entirely coincidental.
BFLpL0QNek 7y ago
For all the rhetoric in the tech industry over diversity, "Culture Fit" seems a bit of a catch all exit hatch and anything but diverse.
- Traster 7y ago
  Well, let's be real - there's good diversity and bad diversity. No one says "We need more diversity" and means "At the moment everyone in the office has good hygiene standards, let's bring in someone who smells". The problem is that "Culture Fit" is often undefined - rarely is it explicit enough for us to say: "Our culture is x,y,z. This person showed this behavior so it's a no". Although one thing I will say as an interviewer is I've had to reject candidates on "Culture Fit" in the past based on things like "This candidate talks way too much and it's so disruptive and frustrating that I literally can't get through the competency part of the interview". However, there is no way I'm going to feed that back to the candidate- so often Culture Fit is used as a neutral way of rejecting someone.
exabrial 7y ago
"Culture fit" is a cop out for discrimination.
notacoward 7y ago
This is very true, but it's also important to remember that the drift might not indicate that anyone has lost their way. The needs at a company of twelve people are different than the needs at a company of a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand. At the disruptor vs. the incumbent. Pre-profit vs. post-profit. I know people who have been first developer or first COO/CMO/VPE at multiple companies, leaving each without any rancor whatsoever when those companies outgrew their own ideal skillset and working style. Sometimes people and companies naturally grow apart. While the OP's point that it's not always your fault is a good one, the conclusion (that if it's not your fault it must be the company's) does not follow. Sometimes it's not a fault. It's just a thing that happened.
jillesvangurp 7y ago
To paraphrase Joel Spolsky, using cultural fit for dismissing a candidate has a high risk being a form of discrimination: https://www.stackoverflowbusiness.com/blog/the-trouble-with-culture-fit https://www.stackoverflowbusiness.com/blog/the-trouble-with-...
Balgair 7y ago
> If really good people who are able to literally work anywhere are still at your company even though they don't have to be, it's probably doing pretty well. If those same people then turn around and leave the company, you should worry. They are the canaries in the coal mine, and fail first. It takes much longer for it to filter down to the folks who don't have the privilege of having so much flexibility and so many options. Reminds me of this advice as well; https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/ https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear...

255 points by greenyoda 7y ago

I think that like any category of evaluation, it works best if it's specific, consistent, and planned. Eg "Part of our culture is that we are collaborative; when we discussed code reviews and the candidate said they think they are a waste of time, that raised a flag because constructive and timely code reviews is an expectation for all our our engineers" That's pretty good. "Our culture is collaborative. This candidate didn't feel like they'd be a good fit here." That's not so good. Have an evaluation criteria going in. Rate candidates on the the same criteria. In debriefs, use specific examples from the interview to explain why you rated them as you did. Otherwise, it's just post-hoc rationalization of a snap emotional decision.

primeblue 7y ago

Decades of experience shown me this kind of attitude arises from being inexperienced and unprofessional

draw_down 7y ago

I think “culture” is a vague word that can be made to do a lot of work, a weasel word. Culture as a reason for not hiring someone strikes me a very suspicious. There should be a concrete reason the person is not fit for the work as part of a no-hire decision. “Culture” should be an emergent property of the people who work at the company.

mieseratte 7y ago

You’d be amazed at corporate ability to find excuses for their canaries departure. Sometimes to the degree that you could be forgiven for assuming their goal was downsizing without layoffs.

hnzix 7y ago
> downsizing without layoffs It's the most destructive form of downsizing for the company, as the competent staff who have options jump ship and only the dregs are left hanging around.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  And the good people will bad-mouth you later. Losing you further potential good hires.

m0zg 7y ago

Cuture fit is a blank check to fail a person's interview just because you didn't like them in the first 30 seconds. Short of the candidate showing some glaring interpersonal issues (I once had a guy who used the word "fuck" during his interview like 100 times) it is categorically impossible to establish in a 45 minute interview whether a person is actually a "fit" or not. So it's mostly a legitimized form of hiring bias. Too old? That's a poor "culture fit" right there.

dehrmann 7y ago
It can be, but I've seen very valid uses of it. Some cultures value openness more than others, top-down vs. bottom-up, well-defined roles vs. flexibility, big company vs. small.
el_dev_hell 7y ago
> Cuture fit is a blank check to fail a person's interview just because you didn't like them in the first 30 seconds. I hear this all the time. Yeah, that might be true in some cases, but it's also valid in quite a lot of instances (like the example you provided). > it is categorically impossible to establish in a 45 minute interview whether a person is actually a "fit" or not I've run/sat in on several trainwreck interviews over the years (for ad account manager roles and logistical analyst roles mostly). Here are a few examples of candidates that were perfect in every way until the interview based on culture fit: * The guy that mentioned he only traveled to Thailand because ladyboys do it better. * The guy that mentioned he wouldn't work with anyone that drank alcohol because it's "the retardant of the masses". Fair enough opinion. About 20% of our ad sales came from alcohol-related businesses. I asked if he would have a problem dealing with liquor businesses. He explained that wouldn't be a problem as long as they didn't ask if he drank. * I was sitting in on an interview with the Marketing Director for an account management gig on a Monday morning. We asked the candidate if she did anything noteworthy over the weekend. She told us she went dancing with her friend "Molly" at a music festival and laughed. * The analyst that mentioned he scrapes NSFW subreddits in his spare time and links throwaway accounts to main accounts based on comment history, similar subreddit crossover, posting times, and vernacular (his tool was pretty impressive -- it sent him an email whenever it had a hit with over 50% accuracy or something which he received during the interview).

bertil 7y ago

Absolutely. Azure? “We take care of technical debt as we go”? You don’t know your engineers retention off the top of your head, but half of the projects I’m supposed to interface with have lost their tech lead and you can’t replace any? I’ve asked a non-technical executive what is a rollback and they didn’t know? It’s not me, darling, it’s you.

stuntkite 7y ago

I'm self taught and have been doing this for 20 years. Most of that in a sort of survival serial startup mode that eventually stabilized into me having a clue around the time I turned 30. I got hired a few years ago for a senior dev/architect/ops + engineering manager position at a ~5 person startup despite the fact that I was "a bad culture fit" because most of the staff was phds or masters level educated. At the time I found it really offensive that they'd even say that. The CEO said in the same breath "I think hiring you is the closest thing I'll get to cloning myself." Talk about mixed signals! As it turns out, that assessment was solidly right. They were entrenched in policies and behavior that basically guaranteed a tragic failure. And because of those policies the rescue from mistakes always fell on my doorstep well past when it would be trivial to solve the problem. This created a horrifically unpredictable work environment. All and all, it was a growth experience and I probably gave the company a year of life it wouldn't have had otherwise. I would never take another job where that was said to me though.

golemiprague 7y ago

The thing is, homogenous teams perform better than diverse ones, contrary to the common agenda these days. But you can't say I want everybody in my team to be more or less same as me, same culture, same behavioural codes, same common sense and all those things that makes a team perform smoothly like a well oiled machine. So instead they invent all kind of terms and roundabout ways to get to the same results while preaching to the masses about diversity and all kind of nonsense like that.

greenyoda 7y ago
> homogenous teams perform better than diverse ones What evidence do you have for this, and how do you define "homogeneous"? (Homogeneous in terms of what attributes?) Maybe you've just been on teams where the people aren't very good at getting along with people who are different from themselves. For example, if adding a well-qualified woman to a team of men causes the team to lose productivity, that's probably a sign of immaturity in the team, not a problem with the new member.
- golemiprague 7y ago
  What evidence you got to the contrary? I can't give evidence because it is not possible to prove or disprove, hence the problem with all this diversity propaganda, it is a religion, not a some scientific conclusion. But I can give examples of very homogenous societies or industries that succeeded beyond expectations. The funny thing is that unconsciously your example just prove my point. The tech industry is a phenomenal success and you know too well that it was mainly white (and some Asians) males who created and developed it. It is not without reason you bring this example of woman in a team. Japan or Korea is an example to a racially and culturally homogenous countries which succeeded. If you look at almost any new idea in industry, science or arts, it was always a group of like minded people, not very diverse racially or sexually or culturally that pushed it forward. From blues music to hip hop (black man), from the personal computer to social media (white man) from anime to gaming (Asian man) etc. Homogenous groups is great.

gopalv 7y ago

> Also, due to the continued rampant mistreatment of people under our visa situation (ranted about elsewhere), a lot of them have to put up with far more shit. That is perhaps the understatement within the whole article. The ability to push some people further than others before they tap out, results in an environment where that is the normal level of stress. And those who can survive it, but don't want to tend to be marked out as "problems", instead of acknowledging that the insanity is temporary and everyone should/will take a break to recover instead of just burning out one person at a time, while keeping the hiring pipeline trickling in to cover that.

mr_toad 7y ago
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out ...

throwaway42688 7y ago

Throwaway account for obvious reasons. I’m mid-way through my first experience with this. Some warning flags to add for anyone wondering if it’s them or you: - You’re beginning to wonder if it’s you that’s crazy, despite successful previous roles. - Their conversation has moved from “we” to “I” (or “you” and “us”). - Your number of known unknowns (usually people- or business-based) suddenly spikes for no apparent reason - Other people become (comically) formulaic in their response to questions. - Feedback channels are quietly shut down because they’re “not really needed/too much process/etc” I’ve started thinking of it as “professional gaslighting”, though its motivations may not be that sinister. My main mistake was not listening to that feeling that “something is wrong”. It’s surprisingly prescient.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mpweiher 7y ago
I've had that (the gaslighting) happen to me so many times. "You didn't do this assignment" "Er, yes I did, here it is" "Well, you didn't keep me up-to-date on it" "Er, here are my weekly status report e-mails" "But you know I don't read my e-mails" Huh? Another good one was the following: I had assigned one of my reports a task before going on vacation. During said vacation, my "manager" pulls said report from that task. Then afterwards dings me for that task not being completed. Huh? "We're not paying you your bonus" "Why?" "You have to know that yourself". "I do not, and no, that's not how this works" "I won't tell you" Fortunately that was in Germany, so not just crazy, but also illegal.
- hinkley 7y ago
  You know that landlord who tried to keep your deposit by dinging you on everything, especially normal wear and tear? Yeah, I've caught managers doing the same thing. I may have opportunity to call them on it coming up.
- DocTomoe 7y ago
  I'm intrigued: What part of German labour laws make it illegal to not tell you why your employer does not give you a voluntary payment (e.g.: A bonus)?

sixothree 7y ago

The company I work for definitely hires people who are not a "culture fit" and our company is better for it. People who bring different perspective make your products stronger.

phaedryx 7y ago
Huh, what would you say your company's culture is and why don't the people fit?
- sixothree 7y ago
  Why the down-vote? Is it that hard to imagine?
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    The person replying to you isn’t necessarily the person down-voting you so don’t take it out on them!
    - sixothree 7y ago
      You are right.
mhluongo 7y ago
Then you have a loose, inclusive culture- right? That's not the case everywhere
- sixothree 7y ago
  I'm proud of the people who are and have been a part of our team. For such a small company we do fairly well. And although there's little managers can do about it, we like to stay aware of cliques too. They are so corrosive. I believe that plays into what is described as "fit" as well.
cwyers 7y ago

joe_the_user 7y ago

Any kind of "fit" should be a two-way street but it usually isn't (or maybe it's nine lane super highway one-direction and pitted gravel road in the other direction). They have lots of money that they might spend on your arguably good skill set. You have a bit of money you might use to hold out until one better fit comes along. They (for a sad portion of "they") can afford crappy "fits" in terms of competence if it flatters them in one or another fashions or a person shows a willingness to throw umpteen hours into the cause. What can you afford?

tim58 7y ago
> You have a bit of money you might use to hold out until one better fit comes along. > What can you afford? I've done contracting work in between W2 jobs. In the full swing of contracting I make ~25% more money but I prefer the stability and simplistically of working a full time salary position (guaranteed two paychecks a month, better health insurance, fully clocked out by 6pm). I absolutely won't go into a full time salary position unless the company and culture is a very good fit and the pay is competitive. If you know how to code and have something that proves you do (CS degree, work history, github etc) you should never feel stuck at one place. If a company isn't treating you with excellence you can make more money as an independent contractor.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Why Only 25% ? I just had to point out in the UK to a recruiter pitching me a short term contact at straight time instead of at contract rates is taking the piss.
whateveracct 7y ago
It's relatively easy to find another job in tech. You should always be aware that you can, in fact, peace out of the culture or a boss is shitty.
- lacampbell 7y ago
  That's highly tied to geography

mrcactu5 7y ago

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerpendicularBisector.html http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerpendicularBisector.html

mharroun 7y ago

As someone who has built and led many engineering/product teams interviewing & evaluating for/on culture is super important. One key thing though is making sure everyone on the team understands our culture, and applies is somewhat fairly. Personally I define "culture" as following the values set by the company and the department. At my current place what are the core culture concepts we look out for (in a nutshell): - Valuing the delivery of functional & sustainable products over checking boxes or coming up with impressive/resume-building solutions - Everyone is expected to support, teach, and grow one another and everyone has something they can teach. - Valuing receiving & giving honest, direct, and valuable feedback. Many engineers would NOT fit this culture and in some interviews that becomes very apparent. We also send our values to our interviews before we bring them on site and reiterate them strongly before giving an offer letter... Thoes who have ignored this have never lasted to 6 months due to clashes with deliverables and with other team members.

tehjoker 7y ago

Companies don't have cultures. They have ways of demanding more of workers though propaganda. That's why this stuff always feels hollow and twisted.

FooHentai 7y ago
Companies stated culture != it's actual culture. The employees of any organization develop culture in how they interact (this is the real org culture), but some organizations also try and steer towards the culture they consider 'ideal' (the false culture you allude to). This attempt is often ham-fisted, and often fails.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ChuckMcM 7y ago

This is a great post and so spot on. At some point in my career my 'review prep' (which was the time I spent working on my own evaluation of my year at a company) became answering the question, "Do I still want to work here?" I categorize my 'review' in four sections (which are each rated at one of five levels, needs improvement, sometimes meets expectations, meets expectations, sometimes exceeds expectations, or consistently exceeds expectations) I start by reviewing how I'm being managed, I expect someone managing me to be clear in their expectations of my work product, provide resources when I have identified the need to complete jobs, can clearly articulate the problem I am expected to be solving, and can clearly articulate the criteria by which the solution will be evaluated. Second I review my co-workers, using a three axis evaluation, can I trust what they say to be accurate/honest, can I count on them to meet their commitments, and are they willing to teach me when I don't understand something and conversely learn when their is something they do not know. Third I review what level of support do I get to do my job. Am I provided with a workspace where I can get work done? Do have have the equipment I need to do what is being asked? Is my commute conducive to the hours required? And finally and most important, does this job allow me to balance work obligations and non-work obligations? Fourth I review whether or not the company mission, ethics, and culture is still one that I wish to be a part of. Am I proud of the company's mission? Do I believe that the leadership will make ethical calls even if doing so would mean less profit margin? Can I relate to and am I compatible with the values that my co-workers espouse and the actions they take? (this is the "company culture" theme, is it still a company that fits me culturally) A company that receives lower than a 3.0 rating I put on a 90 day "company improvement plan" (CIP). I bring issues to the leadership who are in a position to address the situations that I've found wanting and try to secure their commitment to change. If after 90 days they haven't been able to (if they choose not to they're done right away), then I "fire" the company and work to process my exit as expeditiously as possible.

stuntkite 7y ago
This is a much more streamlined version of the way I try to approach employment. I'm totally going to borrow this. Thanks!
j2kun 7y ago
This comment has prompted me to think more (and more clearly) about how I would evaluate the company I work for. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

billsix 7y ago

> Look at a statement of equivalence. You might say that "A is equal to B" or "A == B". There are two "flows" going on there: A has to match up with B, sure, but B also has to match up with A. Weird way to describe the symmetric property of equality from discrete math 201

rachelbythebay 7y ago
Math? Me? Not so much. If it sounds like some profound theorem then I assure you it’s entirely coincidental.

BFLpL0QNek 7y ago

For all the rhetoric in the tech industry over diversity, "Culture Fit" seems a bit of a catch all exit hatch and anything but diverse.

Traster 7y ago
Well, let's be real - there's good diversity and bad diversity. No one says "We need more diversity" and means "At the moment everyone in the office has good hygiene standards, let's bring in someone who smells". The problem is that "Culture Fit" is often undefined - rarely is it explicit enough for us to say: "Our culture is x,y,z. This person showed this behavior so it's a no". Although one thing I will say as an interviewer is I've had to reject candidates on "Culture Fit" in the past based on things like "This candidate talks way too much and it's so disruptive and frustrating that I literally can't get through the competency part of the interview". However, there is no way I'm going to feed that back to the candidate- so often Culture Fit is used as a neutral way of rejecting someone.

exabrial 7y ago

"Culture fit" is a cop out for discrimination.

notacoward 7y ago

This is very true, but it's also important to remember that the drift might not indicate that anyone has lost their way. The needs at a company of twelve people are different than the needs at a company of a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand. At the disruptor vs. the incumbent. Pre-profit vs. post-profit. I know people who have been first developer or first COO/CMO/VPE at multiple companies, leaving each without any rancor whatsoever when those companies outgrew their own ideal skillset and working style. Sometimes people and companies naturally grow apart. While the OP's point that it's not always your fault is a good one, the conclusion (that if it's not your fault it must be the company's) does not follow. Sometimes it's not a fault. It's just a thing that happened.

jillesvangurp 7y ago

To paraphrase Joel Spolsky, using cultural fit for dismissing a candidate has a high risk being a form of discrimination: https://www.stackoverflowbusiness.com/blog/the-trouble-with-culture-fit https://www.stackoverflowbusiness.com/blog/the-trouble-with-...

Balgair 7y ago

> If really good people who are able to literally work anywhere are still at your company even though they don't have to be, it's probably doing pretty well. If those same people then turn around and leave the company, you should worry. They are the canaries in the coal mine, and fail first. It takes much longer for it to filter down to the folks who don't have the privilege of having so much flexibility and so many options. Reminds me of this advice as well; https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-earth-%E2%80%93-soda%E2%80%99s-are-no-longer-free/ https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear...