14 ms·

Apple will add 5G to 2020 iPhones to compete with Android, analyst says

44 points by octosphere 7y ago

thepangolino 7y ago
Given the current state of mobile data offering across the globe (how limited and expensive the offer is), I wouldn’t worry too much about 5G yet.
valine 7y ago
I’m not so sure that most consumers will think “5g is a necessary function.” Without millimeter wave 5g is only slightly faster than 4g, and millimeter wave coverage will be worse than WiFi pretty much everywhere but the most densely populated regions.
- vlozko 7y ago
  While it hasn’t reached its promised speeds, I wouldn’t at all call it only slightly faster. https://www.tomsguide.com/features/5g-vs-4g https://www.tomsguide.com/features/5g-vs-4g
  - zamadatix 7y ago
    > Without millimeter wave 5g is only slightly faster than 4g, and millimeter wave coverage will be worse than WiFi pretty much everywhere but the most densely populated regions. > AT&T, T-Mobile and Verizon’s networks, which rely on high-band millimeter-wave spectrum.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
  With flagship phone sales plummeting, the industry hopes 5g will save them. I really don’t know anyone that has told me they want or need 5g. With current draconian data plans of just a few gb what use would 5g be to the average consumer?
  - rayiner 7y ago
    > With current draconian data plans of just a few gb what use would 5g be to the average consumer? I have no idea where this argument comes from. Was 4G useless because carriers stuck with the same data caps we had from the 3G era? Today, the average U.S. smartphone subscriber uses 6GB/month of cellular data, well below the 20GB+ soft-cap of every provider's unlimited plan: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/10/28/heres-how-much-smartphone-data-americans-are-using.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/10/28/heres-how-much-sma.... With 5G, those caps will go up further. Verizon isn't even applying the 22GB 4G throttling limit to 5G yet: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/18263593/verizon-5g-service-price-location-launch-date https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/18263593/verizon-5g-servi....
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - DataWorker 7y ago
      No, you are totally misrepresenting the link you posted. Only those who have paid for an unlimited plan hit 6GB. The average person has no need for this sort of service. It’s a way to wring more money out of cellphone users, already an area long overdue for better consumer protection. Companies want 5g, consumers do not.
    - JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
      You couldn’t do what you needed to on 3g since it wouldn’t support video streaming etc. What killer app does 5g have that 4g doesn’t already do? When I’m on my phone and have good LTE strength I never find myself saying “I wish this was downloading faster.” If it was for a home pc sure, but there’s only so much I need to do on a phone. Maybe I’m being really short-sighted and people will VR interact soon on 5g.
      - jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
        My guess is that everyone is itching to deploy 5G in order to expand the surveillance (advertising) industry. It seems pretty clear that they want every object in the world to constantly be observing and reporting images, sound, temperature, atmospheric pressure, humidity, etc. 5G helps to do this silently, without your permission. I can choose whether or not my computer can connect to my IP network. Good luck disconnecting your car or your washing machine when they each have modem chips soldered into their motherboards.
- SigmundA 7y ago
  My understanding is 5g over 4g bands will have lower latency and better spectrum use. So while not as big a jump as 3g->4g still some improvements there.
- ksec 7y ago
  >Without millimeter wave 5g is only slightly faster than 4g Yes and no, while technically 5G is only slightly faster on paper in Sub 6Ghz, In Reality 5G brings much improved capacity to the network, which translate to much better utilization and faster speed. And since most people don't upgrade their phone as quickly as they used to, there will be those who would rather have an 5G phone now rather than wait 3 - 4 years til their next upgrade.
- clairity 7y ago
  5G is clearly not necessary yet, but it's also nowhere near close to being widely deployed (that will happen over the next 3-5 years). AR, and pervasive computing in general, will eventually make 5G more than a novelty however. in any case, i personally doubt apple will add 5G in 2020, as they tend to be conservative on wireless tech (including wifi, bluetooth, etc.), waiting 1-2 years after the first rollouts by early adopters (like samsung), to make sure the kinks are worked out all around (equipment makers and carriers too). 2021 is probably more likely for the first 5G iphone, and 2022 will likely be the year you'll want to buy it.
  - JustSomeNobody 7y ago
    > AR, and pervasive computing in general... Except it will be prohibitively expensive for most Americans thanks to only three major carriers competing in the US.
olah_1 7y ago
Just sharing the obligatory cancer scare articles. It's obvious to me that radiation of all kinds has an effect on us, whether that is non-ionizing or not. I think a lot more independent research needs to be done in this area, lest we look back on this time in a similar way to doctors endorsing cigarettes. "Bay Area city blocks 5G deployments over cancer concerns" https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/10/bay-area-city-blocks-5g-deployments-over-cancer-concerns/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/10/bay-area-city-blocks-5g-de... "Don’t keep cell phones next to your body, California Health Department warns" https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/15/dont-keep-cell-phones-next-to-your-body-california-health-department-warns/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/15/dont-keep-cell-phones-next...
- rayiner 7y ago
  If you want to know why America has such shitty infrastructure (especially cities like San Francisco where the density should warrant it), here is Exhibit A. Environmental studies, aesthetic objections,[1] fake health concerns, etc. In the 4.6 years Americans spend to prepare the average Environmental Impact Statement for an infrastructure project, Europeans can build city-wide subway systems or tunnel through mountains. Other countries are not going to hold up 5G deployment over fake health concerns. If we don't want 5G to be yet another area, like transit and roads, where the US lags woefully behind Europe and Japan, we must fight such distractions. [1] Remember when San Francisco held up AT&T fiber deployment in the city for years with a lawsuit about ugly fiber boxes? https://stopthecap.com/2011/06/29/san-francisco-still-in-stalemate-with-att-over-lawn-refrigerators-for-u-verse/ https://stopthecap.com/2011/06/29/san-francisco-still-in-sta...
  - olah_1 7y ago
    The radiation and cancer concern is categorically different than "not in my backyard". If you can't see that these are totally unrelated, then I don't know what to say. Fiber lines are completely different than "hey these rats that are constantly exposed to 5G radiation that's 20 yards away are acting all messed up".
    - 7y ago
walterbell 7y ago
Can rural iPhone users manually disable mmWave radios on their local devices, since there will be no use for the beamforming receiver outside of urban areas? On a related topic, 6Ghz WiFi (unlicensed and unmetered) is needed for AR glasses which won't have the battery power for cellular service, https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/7/23/20707456/6ghz-vlp-wi-fi-tethering-hotspot-apple-google-facebook-microsoft-qualcomm-broadcom-intel-marvell-hp https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/7/23/20707456/6... > Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, HP, Qualcomm, Intel, Broadcom, and Marvell ... are petitioning the FCC to approve a new Very Low Power (VLP) category of Wi-Fi where small, low-power devices like smartphones that transmit below a certain power threshold (14 dBm EIRP) could traverse the 6GHz spectrum ... short-range, point-to-point connections between two devices — think within a room, not across your house. The letter suggests they could deliver 2Gbps at a distance of 3 meters Short-range 6Ghz VLP WiFi would reduce WiFi congestion in urban areas, where dozens of 2.4Ghz WiFi routers can be visible.
- zamadatix 7y ago
  iPhones can limit between 4G, 3G, 2G for quite a while now, I'd assume this option would continue on. 60 GHz (802.11ad/802.11ay) is better suites for AR/VR, is already out, and doesn't have interference issues due to physics. 6 GHz should be focusing on devices that need to work at range not ones that can already be served via in-room frequencies.
  - walterbell 7y ago
    Would 60Ghz (300-500m for 802.11ay) be competitive in power consumption with VLP 6Ghz (3m)?
    - zamadatix 7y ago
      Setting the data rate and transmit power to the same power sure, there isn't anything particular special about 60 GHz compared to 6 GHz other than 60 isn't going to make it through drywall. Qualcomm has actually been releasing phone chipsets with 802.11ad for a while now. Intel did it for wireless laptop docking. Qualcomm's 5G modem also comes with 802.11ay but I don't know of anybody else that has deployed it yet.
sandGorgon 7y ago
A clear indicator that Apple is focusing on markets other than the US. 5g is deploying in China and India and soon in a lot of countries in SE Asia. The consumption of mobile bandwidth is literally through the roof. Netflix having a 2.5$ monthly mobile-only plan in India is a clear signalling of that.
- dymk 7y ago
  China has been one of apples largest and fastest growing markets for a long time now.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  5G is deployed in a lot of cities already, and nearly every android manufacturer has at least one 5g model. Being 18 months late to the party will really hurt Apple.
  - lttlrck 7y ago
    18 months is less than 1 refresh cycle. How is the average Apple user missing out by not having 5G now?
    - Jyaif 7y ago
      Being one refresh cycle late on a feature means 100% of the Apple users missed out on the feature, for one generation. Being 3/4 of a refresh cycle late still means that 75% of the users missed out on the feature.
    - godzillabrennus 7y ago
      They aren't missing out. They aren't buying new iPhones. Apple is missing out on a lot of revenue but they know their customers will wait for them. I'm still on an iPhone X and will be until there is a compelling new iPhone. Switching to android would require paying for a lot of apps that I use regularly all over again. Not worth it for me.
- adventured 7y ago
dang 7y ago
Url changed from https://www.pymnts.com/apple/2019/three-2020-iphones-will-support-5g/ https://www.pymnts.com/apple/2019/three-2020-iphones-will-su..., which points to this.
SomeOldThrow 7y ago
Meanwhile my old SE is going to work just fine....
- trainstaion 7y ago
  atari was where it apple started, surething.

44 points by octosphere 7y ago

Given the current state of mobile data offering across the globe (how limited and expensive the offer is), I wouldn’t worry too much about 5G yet.

valine 7y ago

I’m not so sure that most consumers will think “5g is a necessary function.” Without millimeter wave 5g is only slightly faster than 4g, and millimeter wave coverage will be worse than WiFi pretty much everywhere but the most densely populated regions.

vlozko 7y ago
While it hasn’t reached its promised speeds, I wouldn’t at all call it only slightly faster. https://www.tomsguide.com/features/5g-vs-4g https://www.tomsguide.com/features/5g-vs-4g
- zamadatix 7y ago
  > Without millimeter wave 5g is only slightly faster than 4g, and millimeter wave coverage will be worse than WiFi pretty much everywhere but the most densely populated regions. > AT&T, T-Mobile and Verizon’s networks, which rely on high-band millimeter-wave spectrum.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
With flagship phone sales plummeting, the industry hopes 5g will save them. I really don’t know anyone that has told me they want or need 5g. With current draconian data plans of just a few gb what use would 5g be to the average consumer?
- rayiner 7y ago
  > With current draconian data plans of just a few gb what use would 5g be to the average consumer? I have no idea where this argument comes from. Was 4G useless because carriers stuck with the same data caps we had from the 3G era? Today, the average U.S. smartphone subscriber uses 6GB/month of cellular data, well below the 20GB+ soft-cap of every provider's unlimited plan: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/10/28/heres-how-much-smartphone-data-americans-are-using.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/10/28/heres-how-much-sma.... With 5G, those caps will go up further. Verizon isn't even applying the 22GB 4G throttling limit to 5G yet: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/18263593/verizon-5g-service-price-location-launch-date https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/18263593/verizon-5g-servi....
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - DataWorker 7y ago
    No, you are totally misrepresenting the link you posted. Only those who have paid for an unlimited plan hit 6GB. The average person has no need for this sort of service. It’s a way to wring more money out of cellphone users, already an area long overdue for better consumer protection. Companies want 5g, consumers do not.
  - JohnJamesRambo 7y ago
    You couldn’t do what you needed to on 3g since it wouldn’t support video streaming etc. What killer app does 5g have that 4g doesn’t already do? When I’m on my phone and have good LTE strength I never find myself saying “I wish this was downloading faster.” If it was for a home pc sure, but there’s only so much I need to do on a phone. Maybe I’m being really short-sighted and people will VR interact soon on 5g.
    - jacobwilliamroy 7y ago
      My guess is that everyone is itching to deploy 5G in order to expand the surveillance (advertising) industry. It seems pretty clear that they want every object in the world to constantly be observing and reporting images, sound, temperature, atmospheric pressure, humidity, etc. 5G helps to do this silently, without your permission. I can choose whether or not my computer can connect to my IP network. Good luck disconnecting your car or your washing machine when they each have modem chips soldered into their motherboards.
SigmundA 7y ago
My understanding is 5g over 4g bands will have lower latency and better spectrum use. So while not as big a jump as 3g->4g still some improvements there.
ksec 7y ago
>Without millimeter wave 5g is only slightly faster than 4g Yes and no, while technically 5G is only slightly faster on paper in Sub 6Ghz, In Reality 5G brings much improved capacity to the network, which translate to much better utilization and faster speed. And since most people don't upgrade their phone as quickly as they used to, there will be those who would rather have an 5G phone now rather than wait 3 - 4 years til their next upgrade.
clairity 7y ago
5G is clearly not necessary yet, but it's also nowhere near close to being widely deployed (that will happen over the next 3-5 years). AR, and pervasive computing in general, will eventually make 5G more than a novelty however. in any case, i personally doubt apple will add 5G in 2020, as they tend to be conservative on wireless tech (including wifi, bluetooth, etc.), waiting 1-2 years after the first rollouts by early adopters (like samsung), to make sure the kinks are worked out all around (equipment makers and carriers too). 2021 is probably more likely for the first 5G iphone, and 2022 will likely be the year you'll want to buy it.
- JustSomeNobody 7y ago
  > AR, and pervasive computing in general... Except it will be prohibitively expensive for most Americans thanks to only three major carriers competing in the US.

olah_1 7y ago

Just sharing the obligatory cancer scare articles. It's obvious to me that radiation of all kinds has an effect on us, whether that is non-ionizing or not. I think a lot more independent research needs to be done in this area, lest we look back on this time in a similar way to doctors endorsing cigarettes. "Bay Area city blocks 5G deployments over cancer concerns" https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/10/bay-area-city-blocks-5g-deployments-over-cancer-concerns/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/10/bay-area-city-blocks-5g-de... "Don’t keep cell phones next to your body, California Health Department warns" https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/15/dont-keep-cell-phones-next-to-your-body-california-health-department-warns/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/15/dont-keep-cell-phones-next...

rayiner 7y ago
If you want to know why America has such shitty infrastructure (especially cities like San Francisco where the density should warrant it), here is Exhibit A. Environmental studies, aesthetic objections,[1] fake health concerns, etc. In the 4.6 years Americans spend to prepare the average Environmental Impact Statement for an infrastructure project, Europeans can build city-wide subway systems or tunnel through mountains. Other countries are not going to hold up 5G deployment over fake health concerns. If we don't want 5G to be yet another area, like transit and roads, where the US lags woefully behind Europe and Japan, we must fight such distractions. [1] Remember when San Francisco held up AT&T fiber deployment in the city for years with a lawsuit about ugly fiber boxes? https://stopthecap.com/2011/06/29/san-francisco-still-in-stalemate-with-att-over-lawn-refrigerators-for-u-verse/ https://stopthecap.com/2011/06/29/san-francisco-still-in-sta...
- olah_1 7y ago
  The radiation and cancer concern is categorically different than "not in my backyard". If you can't see that these are totally unrelated, then I don't know what to say. Fiber lines are completely different than "hey these rats that are constantly exposed to 5G radiation that's 20 yards away are acting all messed up".
  - 7y ago

walterbell 7y ago

Can rural iPhone users manually disable mmWave radios on their local devices, since there will be no use for the beamforming receiver outside of urban areas? On a related topic, 6Ghz WiFi (unlicensed and unmetered) is needed for AR glasses which won't have the battery power for cellular service, https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/7/23/20707456/6ghz-vlp-wi-fi-tethering-hotspot-apple-google-facebook-microsoft-qualcomm-broadcom-intel-marvell-hp https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/7/23/20707456/6... > Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, HP, Qualcomm, Intel, Broadcom, and Marvell ... are petitioning the FCC to approve a new Very Low Power (VLP) category of Wi-Fi where small, low-power devices like smartphones that transmit below a certain power threshold (14 dBm EIRP) could traverse the 6GHz spectrum ... short-range, point-to-point connections between two devices — think within a room, not across your house. The letter suggests they could deliver 2Gbps at a distance of 3 meters Short-range 6Ghz VLP WiFi would reduce WiFi congestion in urban areas, where dozens of 2.4Ghz WiFi routers can be visible.

zamadatix 7y ago
iPhones can limit between 4G, 3G, 2G for quite a while now, I'd assume this option would continue on. 60 GHz (802.11ad/802.11ay) is better suites for AR/VR, is already out, and doesn't have interference issues due to physics. 6 GHz should be focusing on devices that need to work at range not ones that can already be served via in-room frequencies.
- walterbell 7y ago
  Would 60Ghz (300-500m for 802.11ay) be competitive in power consumption with VLP 6Ghz (3m)?
  - zamadatix 7y ago
    Setting the data rate and transmit power to the same power sure, there isn't anything particular special about 60 GHz compared to 6 GHz other than 60 isn't going to make it through drywall. Qualcomm has actually been releasing phone chipsets with 802.11ad for a while now. Intel did it for wireless laptop docking. Qualcomm's 5G modem also comes with 802.11ay but I don't know of anybody else that has deployed it yet.

sandGorgon 7y ago

A clear indicator that Apple is focusing on markets other than the US. 5g is deploying in China and India and soon in a lot of countries in SE Asia. The consumption of mobile bandwidth is literally through the roof. Netflix having a 2.5$ monthly mobile-only plan in India is a clear signalling of that.

dymk 7y ago
China has been one of apples largest and fastest growing markets for a long time now.
londons_explore 7y ago
5G is deployed in a lot of cities already, and nearly every android manufacturer has at least one 5g model. Being 18 months late to the party will really hurt Apple.
- lttlrck 7y ago
  18 months is less than 1 refresh cycle. How is the average Apple user missing out by not having 5G now?
  - Jyaif 7y ago
    Being one refresh cycle late on a feature means 100% of the Apple users missed out on the feature, for one generation. Being 3/4 of a refresh cycle late still means that 75% of the users missed out on the feature.
  - godzillabrennus 7y ago
    They aren't missing out. They aren't buying new iPhones. Apple is missing out on a lot of revenue but they know their customers will wait for them. I'm still on an iPhone X and will be until there is a compelling new iPhone. Switching to android would require paying for a lot of apps that I use regularly all over again. Not worth it for me.
adventured 7y ago

dang 7y ago

Url changed from https://www.pymnts.com/apple/2019/three-2020-iphones-will-support-5g/ https://www.pymnts.com/apple/2019/three-2020-iphones-will-su..., which points to this.

SomeOldThrow 7y ago

Meanwhile my old SE is going to work just fine....

trainstaion 7y ago
atari was where it apple started, surething.