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American Indians had never seen medieval Europeans as the Europeans that started going to America had been coming from Renaissance Europe. I have read that for

by chewz 7y ago

American Indians had never seen medieval Europeans as the Europeans that started going to America had been coming from Renaissance Europe. I have read that for some reason during Renaissance Europeans started preferring natural body smell and bathing less.

joe_the_user 7y ago
Any reference for this? I'd be honestly interested. Edit: This Wikipedia section seems like a mishmash of contradictory claims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene#Hygiene_in_medieval_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene#Hygiene_in_medieval_Eu...
- tom_mellior 7y ago
  The linked article has a section addressing this. It says that in later periods some doctors recommended not bathing.
- wisty 7y ago
  Medieval Europe is several hundred years, a load of different societies at any given time, social strata within these societies. And even then, are sources reliable? If a lot of writers in a time period write that people don't bath enough, is that a sign that everyone is concerned about hygiene, or a sign that people aren't concerned about hygiene?
  - joe_the_user 7y ago
    Indeed, all that is made more challenging given that "ordinary life" was often not considered a subject that should be written about any detail. I recall a description of medieval literature often involving "the acts of kings" written as just as a sequence of events. I think in many societies, there often wasn't much effort put into "telling people what they already knew" and instead writing involved records of big events or accounting entries.
- malaya_zemlya 7y ago
  Some indirect evidence comes from historical perfume recipes. They really liked strong stuff back in the day. King Lear: "Give me an ounce of civet, good apothecary, to sweeten my imagination: there's money for thee" Now, Civet here is a by-product of anal glands of a civet cat (not really a cat) and it smells pretty much like you'd imagine: extremely fecal, pungent and long lasting. Modern perfumes still use this ingredient sometimes in minuscule amounts, but one ounce of civet is a lot for a modern nose. it would stink up the entire king's palace for days or even weeks.
  - jaclaz 7y ago
    Off-time but not off-topic, an exceptionally good story is narrated in Perfume by Patrick Süskind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Süskind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Süskind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfume_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfume_(novel) What many people forget today is that we are now (with the obvious exception of smog/pollution and related) mostly living in odourless environments whilst the air in a city, at least until the 18th or 19th century was full of very strong smells. Only think of: 1) open gutters/sewers 2) "side effects" of ubiquitous animal traction 3) small shops/industries (using fires, chemicals, etc., one example for all tanneries) were often side by side with homes
philwelch 7y ago
> American Indians had never seen medieval Europeans as the Europeans that started going to America had been coming from Renaissance Europe. That’s what I was referring to as “the early modern period”.

by chewz 7y ago

joe_the_user 7y ago

Any reference for this? I'd be honestly interested. Edit: This Wikipedia section seems like a mishmash of contradictory claims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene#Hygiene_in_medieval_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene#Hygiene_in_medieval_Eu...

tom_mellior 7y ago
The linked article has a section addressing this. It says that in later periods some doctors recommended not bathing.
wisty 7y ago
Medieval Europe is several hundred years, a load of different societies at any given time, social strata within these societies. And even then, are sources reliable? If a lot of writers in a time period write that people don't bath enough, is that a sign that everyone is concerned about hygiene, or a sign that people aren't concerned about hygiene?
- joe_the_user 7y ago
  Indeed, all that is made more challenging given that "ordinary life" was often not considered a subject that should be written about any detail. I recall a description of medieval literature often involving "the acts of kings" written as just as a sequence of events. I think in many societies, there often wasn't much effort put into "telling people what they already knew" and instead writing involved records of big events or accounting entries.
malaya_zemlya 7y ago
Some indirect evidence comes from historical perfume recipes. They really liked strong stuff back in the day. King Lear: "Give me an ounce of civet, good apothecary, to sweeten my imagination: there's money for thee" Now, Civet here is a by-product of anal glands of a civet cat (not really a cat) and it smells pretty much like you'd imagine: extremely fecal, pungent and long lasting. Modern perfumes still use this ingredient sometimes in minuscule amounts, but one ounce of civet is a lot for a modern nose. it would stink up the entire king's palace for days or even weeks.
- jaclaz 7y ago
  Off-time but not off-topic, an exceptionally good story is narrated in Perfume by Patrick Süskind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Süskind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Süskind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfume_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfume_(novel) What many people forget today is that we are now (with the obvious exception of smog/pollution and related) mostly living in odourless environments whilst the air in a city, at least until the 18th or 19th century was full of very strong smells. Only think of: 1) open gutters/sewers 2) "side effects" of ubiquitous animal traction 3) small shops/industries (using fires, chemicals, etc., one example for all tanneries) were often side by side with homes

philwelch 7y ago

> American Indians had never seen medieval Europeans as the Europeans that started going to America had been coming from Renaissance Europe. That’s what I was referring to as “the early modern period”.