4 ms·

> many now require daily pledge of allegiance here in Washington state Haven’t court decisions rendered pupils’ participation in the pledge of allegiance optio

> many now require daily pledge of allegiance here in Washington state Haven’t court decisions rendered pupils’ participation in the pledge of allegiance optional in all 50 states?

seanmcdirmid 7y ago
Yes. But that doesn’t mean they still can’t require time be set aside for it and for it to be socially awkward to opt out.
- __sy__ 7y ago
  > socially awkward to opt out random aside, there was a kid in my Texas high-school who stopped saying the pledge around the time of the 2003 Iraq war. While I didn't necessarily agree with the method, a few of us did appreciate the fact that he did that; it showed that sometimes the most patriotic thing you can do is not blindly support your government.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    Texas even requires parental consent on opt out, so the kid had to have a good support network.
    - __sy__ 7y ago
      Random q: where were you based in China?
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        Beijing. I was working for MS China.
        __sy__ 7y ago
        Interesting, I was curious. Personally, I feel like the nationalism has gotten a lot worse / uncomfortable in Guangdong in recent years. I don't feel like it used to be this way in anything-goes Southern China.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        I don’t think it was that bad in 1999, 2002 or 2008. Indoctrination was still a thing, but most Chinese kids didn’t take it seriously. It took some populism combined with nationalism from Xi to really turn things around.
        __sy__ 7y ago
        My time in China doesn't go back that far, but it certainly feels different from when I first went there. Guangdong used to feel pretty chill about that stuff, probably a combination of HK-Proximity and the Emperor-is-Far/Mountains-are-high attitude. Nowadays, you can't drive anywhere without seeing Xi's 12 fucking thoughts plastered everywhere. Even Hua Qiang Bei has speakers blasting out propaganda.
ceejayoz 7y ago
That they're technically optional doesn't prevent peers for bullying over it. Source: I was an Australian citizen while in US schools from 2nd through 12th grade. It can be highly uncomfortable to stand silently (and politely) during the Pledge.
- learc83 7y ago
  When I was in school, almost no one actually said the pledge. By the time I was in high school almost every just sat and continued doing what they were doing. This was in a conservative suburban school in the south.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    It's not surprising to me that it's variable. The school administration, culture, and individual teachers matter a lot. For example, a Colorado teacher physically assaulted a student for not saying it: https://kdvr.com/2018/08/31/teacher-accused-of-assaulting-student-who-refused-to-stand-for-pledge-of-allegiance-takes-plea/ https://kdvr.com/2018/08/31/teacher-accused-of-assaulting-st... Another teacher just tried the guilt trip approach: https://fox2now.com/2018/11/16/teacher-banned-after-students-pledge-of-allegiance-bullying-complaint/ https://fox2now.com/2018/11/16/teacher-banned-after-students...

> many now require daily pledge of allegiance here in Washington state Haven’t court decisions rendered pupils’ participation in the pledge of allegiance optional in all 50 states?

seanmcdirmid 7y ago

Yes. But that doesn’t mean they still can’t require time be set aside for it and for it to be socially awkward to opt out.

__sy__ 7y ago
> socially awkward to opt out random aside, there was a kid in my Texas high-school who stopped saying the pledge around the time of the 2003 Iraq war. While I didn't necessarily agree with the method, a few of us did appreciate the fact that he did that; it showed that sometimes the most patriotic thing you can do is not blindly support your government.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  Texas even requires parental consent on opt out, so the kid had to have a good support network.
  - __sy__ 7y ago
    Random q: where were you based in China?
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      Beijing. I was working for MS China.
      - __sy__ 7y ago
        Interesting, I was curious. Personally, I feel like the nationalism has gotten a lot worse / uncomfortable in Guangdong in recent years. I don't feel like it used to be this way in anything-goes Southern China.
        seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        I don’t think it was that bad in 1999, 2002 or 2008. Indoctrination was still a thing, but most Chinese kids didn’t take it seriously. It took some populism combined with nationalism from Xi to really turn things around.
        __sy__ 7y ago
        My time in China doesn't go back that far, but it certainly feels different from when I first went there. Guangdong used to feel pretty chill about that stuff, probably a combination of HK-Proximity and the Emperor-is-Far/Mountains-are-high attitude. Nowadays, you can't drive anywhere without seeing Xi's 12 fucking thoughts plastered everywhere. Even Hua Qiang Bei has speakers blasting out propaganda.

ceejayoz 7y ago

That they're technically optional doesn't prevent peers for bullying over it. Source: I was an Australian citizen while in US schools from 2nd through 12th grade. It can be highly uncomfortable to stand silently (and politely) during the Pledge.

learc83 7y ago
When I was in school, almost no one actually said the pledge. By the time I was in high school almost every just sat and continued doing what they were doing. This was in a conservative suburban school in the south.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  It's not surprising to me that it's variable. The school administration, culture, and individual teachers matter a lot. For example, a Colorado teacher physically assaulted a student for not saying it: https://kdvr.com/2018/08/31/teacher-accused-of-assaulting-student-who-refused-to-stand-for-pledge-of-allegiance-takes-plea/ https://kdvr.com/2018/08/31/teacher-accused-of-assaulting-st... Another teacher just tried the guilt trip approach: https://fox2now.com/2018/11/16/teacher-banned-after-students-pledge-of-allegiance-bullying-complaint/ https://fox2now.com/2018/11/16/teacher-banned-after-students...