4 ms·

That's spying at its fundamentals. Don't let the movies fool you.

by A2017U1 7y ago

mruts 7y ago
Exactly, spy networks are about aggregating information from many people about many people. Fundamentally, spying is very good for the world. It allows for nation states to understand each other’s thinking and reasoning. The most dangerous situations come from misunderstanding, as we are now experiencing with North Korea.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  "They're mobilizing their army, they clearly mean to invade us" WW1 is the quintessential example of nation states misunderstanding each other.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    No, its the quintessential example of fail-deadly systems, and nations misunderstanding the strategic and tactical environment. Every major power bought into the myth of offense dominance (which WWI proved fairly decisively was a myth), and so developed mobilization plans that were essentially designed to preempt any enemy attack and put those mobilization plans on hair trigger since being slow to deploy to an offensive posture was viewed as guaranteeing defeat should war erupt. Germany's mobilization plans against France actually involving occupying Belgium are a fairly extreme example, but the trend was universal among the major European powers. It wasn't that they misunderstood each other, it was that they misunderstood the context.
- A2017U1 7y ago
  Well said. It's incredibly healthy for friends to know each others standpoints beyond nonsense press conferences and public statements mainly intended for domestic audiences. Even better to understand our "enemies" in the most peaceful period in human history. We all spy, it's not some evil to be purged. I do draw the line at corporate stuff though, if only the world treated industrial espionage as highly as cheating in the Olympics. Sadly we all do that too, with varying degrees of effectiveness, some are brash about it, some will go to great lengths pretending they don't do it. Not sure what's worse.
  - ikeyany 7y ago
    I'm curious why you think it's healthy for nations and friends to spy on each other, but not companies.
    - ito03j 7y ago
      Just piling on with similar sentiment. Corporations aren’t people, people are corporations. Saying friends shouldn’t discuss their life’s work is weird, but of course benefits profits and nation state power structures.
    - mcrad 7y ago
      Our economic system is literally designed for companies to compete with one another. The less fair the competition, the more collusion and corruption, the less stable the market is.
- jhayward 7y ago
  > Fundamentally, spying is very good for the world. 'Spying' is not a well-defined term. I think you mean 'information gathering' but also under the rubric of spying fall subversion, sabotage, political interference, propaganda and disinformation, etc. Even in the realm of information gathering the techniques used are often unacceptable - such as deliberately putting someone in a compromising position and then extorting them to provide access to information they posses. I don't think the assertion that those things are good for the world would be widely accepted.
  - germinalphrase 7y ago
    Publicly, the CIA claims that they don’t use negative inducements.
    - jhayward 7y ago
      As part of Edward Snowden's explanation of his radicalization he relates an anecdote of his work for the CIA in Switzerland. From the wiki page: Snowden described his CIA experience in Geneva as formative, stating that the CIA deliberately got a Swiss banker drunk and encouraged him to drive home. Snowden said that when the latter was arrested, a CIA operative offered to help in exchange for the banker becoming an informant. Ueli Maurer, President of the Swiss Confederation for the year 2013, in June of that year publicly disputed Snowden's claims. "This would mean that the CIA successfully bribed the Geneva police and judiciary. With all due respect, I just can't imagine it Everyone should feel free to apply their own judgement about the value of this anecdote. Edit: I would regard kidnapping, rendition, and waterboarding as a "negative inducement", myself.

That's spying at its fundamentals. Don't let the movies fool you.

Exactly, spy networks are about aggregating information from many people about many people. Fundamentally, spying is very good for the world. It allows for nation states to understand each other’s thinking and reasoning. The most dangerous situations come from misunderstanding, as we are now experiencing with North Korea.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
"They're mobilizing their army, they clearly mean to invade us" WW1 is the quintessential example of nation states misunderstanding each other.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  No, its the quintessential example of fail-deadly systems, and nations misunderstanding the strategic and tactical environment. Every major power bought into the myth of offense dominance (which WWI proved fairly decisively was a myth), and so developed mobilization plans that were essentially designed to preempt any enemy attack and put those mobilization plans on hair trigger since being slow to deploy to an offensive posture was viewed as guaranteeing defeat should war erupt. Germany's mobilization plans against France actually involving occupying Belgium are a fairly extreme example, but the trend was universal among the major European powers. It wasn't that they misunderstood each other, it was that they misunderstood the context.
A2017U1 7y ago
Well said. It's incredibly healthy for friends to know each others standpoints beyond nonsense press conferences and public statements mainly intended for domestic audiences. Even better to understand our "enemies" in the most peaceful period in human history. We all spy, it's not some evil to be purged. I do draw the line at corporate stuff though, if only the world treated industrial espionage as highly as cheating in the Olympics. Sadly we all do that too, with varying degrees of effectiveness, some are brash about it, some will go to great lengths pretending they don't do it. Not sure what's worse.
- ikeyany 7y ago
  I'm curious why you think it's healthy for nations and friends to spy on each other, but not companies.
  - ito03j 7y ago
    Just piling on with similar sentiment. Corporations aren’t people, people are corporations. Saying friends shouldn’t discuss their life’s work is weird, but of course benefits profits and nation state power structures.
  - mcrad 7y ago
    Our economic system is literally designed for companies to compete with one another. The less fair the competition, the more collusion and corruption, the less stable the market is.
jhayward 7y ago
> Fundamentally, spying is very good for the world. 'Spying' is not a well-defined term. I think you mean 'information gathering' but also under the rubric of spying fall subversion, sabotage, political interference, propaganda and disinformation, etc. Even in the realm of information gathering the techniques used are often unacceptable - such as deliberately putting someone in a compromising position and then extorting them to provide access to information they posses. I don't think the assertion that those things are good for the world would be widely accepted.
- germinalphrase 7y ago
  Publicly, the CIA claims that they don’t use negative inducements.
  - jhayward 7y ago
    As part of Edward Snowden's explanation of his radicalization he relates an anecdote of his work for the CIA in Switzerland. From the wiki page: Snowden described his CIA experience in Geneva as formative, stating that the CIA deliberately got a Swiss banker drunk and encouraged him to drive home. Snowden said that when the latter was arrested, a CIA operative offered to help in exchange for the banker becoming an informant. Ueli Maurer, President of the Swiss Confederation for the year 2013, in June of that year publicly disputed Snowden's claims. "This would mean that the CIA successfully bribed the Geneva police and judiciary. With all due respect, I just can't imagine it Everyone should feel free to apply their own judgement about the value of this anecdote. Edit: I would regard kidnapping, rendition, and waterboarding as a "negative inducement", myself.