8 ms·

Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission

67 points by Alyan 7y ago

lioeters 7y ago
Time has one of those data-collection consent forms that are seemingly impossible to opt out of, before being able to read the article. I refuse to fall for that dark pattern. Here's a better link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi-women-can-now-travel-without-a-male-guardian-reports-say https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi-women-ca... "Women in Saudi Arabia will no longer need the permission of a male guardian to travel.." "Still in place, however, are rules that require male consent for a woman to leave prison, exit a domestic abuse shelter or marry. Women, unlike men, still cannot pass on citizenship to their children and cannot provide consent for their children to marry."
- majkinetor 7y ago
  Fuck yeah. Here is the original link on the outline nevertheless, just because you still have to do even more clicks on the guardian : https://outline.com/Ba2kkF https://outline.com/Ba2kkF
- Alyan 7y ago
  I would like to add, quoting from times: “Other changes issued in the decrees allow women to register a marriage, divorce or child’s birth and to be issued official family documents” IANAL but I am a Saudi citizen and it seems male consent to leave prison and abuse shelter may be included in these changes. I have seen Saudi citizens speculate about both possibilities so it is not clear yet. Only one of the four major Islamic Sunni madhhaps allow females to marry without consent. Saudi Arabia follows a different madhhap. So if I were to speculate I don’t think it will happen soon because it may risk a revolt as I believe most citizens are religious or at least conservative. However, I also did not expect the current changes to happen this soon for the same reasons so I may be wrong.
  - lioeters 7y ago
    Thank you, that's really interesting to hear a first-person perspective about the cultural changes. > [Allowing] females to marry without consent..may risk a revolt.. Wow, I didn't realize how strongly people (I guess in this case mainly men) felt about this issue. I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner, as it relates to fundamental values of religion, gender roles, and I suppose power dynamics in society.
    - grumpydba 7y ago
      > I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though...
      - viraptor 7y ago
        Sounds like one of those "do you want to talk about absolutes, or practical solutions" cases. Sometimes the only options you get are "terrible" or "slightly less terrible". Unless you're up for taking part in a violent revolution, that is.
        whiddershins 7y ago
        Violent Revolution, by definition, is going to fall somewhere on the terrible scale.
      - mikekchar 7y ago
        Change that is successful and actually changes behaviour is preferable. It is surprisingly easy to look at cultural behaviour, find something that should be changed and pick a method of change that has no hope of success. "But they should just <insert whatever you want here>" does not work if they just won't <whatever>. From one perspective things seem clear, but from the perspective of the people involved it may be far from clear. I've seen well meaning foreign expats set back improvements in their work place by galvanising the opinion of all the locals against them -- even the people who were meant to be helped by the change. You need to tread exceptionally carefully, take your wins where you can take them and wait for another day when you can not win. It's incredibly frustrating when people ignore this truth and destroy huge amounts of work progressing forward. Edit: missing "not"
- Alyan 7y ago
  It seems that as I suspected requiring consent for leaving prison or abuse shelter was also abolished. https://twitter.com/dralmuneef/status/1157139494765645826?s=21 https://twitter.com/dralmuneef/status/1157139494765645826?s=...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ackfoo 7y ago
A man said it. We all believed it. We asked for no corroboration; we obtained no evidence. And that's where we stopped. This is the monstrous injustice of our civilization. We organize the enslavement of over half the population based upon an unfounded idea. Then we pat ourselves on the back for slightly loosening the bonds of slavery. "Go slow," they say, "so as not to disrupt the order of things." So as not to disrupt the order of hateful men lying to maintain their own positions of control.
Konnstann 7y ago
It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.
- theandrewbailey 7y ago
  The US military has been in Saudi Arabia for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sultan_Air_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sultan_Air_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhahran_Air_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhahran_Air_Base
  - Konnstann 7y ago
    Having a military base and orchestrating regime changes are a little bit different.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      The military base is there to protect the regime. It’s easier to deal with a small monarchy with no transparency than a democracy. And they make for a good enemy of other local countries keeping just enough zest in the region for the weapons to keep flowing and the figureheads to keep toppling, but still allowing for a steady supply of oil. History of Modern Middle East by William Cleveland is a good resource: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/64594.A_History_of_the_Modern_Middle_East https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/64594.A_History_of_the_M...
      - selimthegrim 7y ago
        A Peace to End All Peace is good too
      - mywittyname 7y ago
        When people have democracies, they start asking for crazy things that are in their self-interest, such as mineral rights and ownership over their farmland.
devoply 7y ago
Bonesaw has done it again!
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't do this here.
D-Coder 7y ago
To quote a comment from other places, "Welcome to the 19th Century."

67 points by Alyan 7y ago

Time has one of those data-collection consent forms that are seemingly impossible to opt out of, before being able to read the article. I refuse to fall for that dark pattern. Here's a better link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi-women-can-now-travel-without-a-male-guardian-reports-say https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi-women-ca... "Women in Saudi Arabia will no longer need the permission of a male guardian to travel.." "Still in place, however, are rules that require male consent for a woman to leave prison, exit a domestic abuse shelter or marry. Women, unlike men, still cannot pass on citizenship to their children and cannot provide consent for their children to marry."

majkinetor 7y ago
Fuck yeah. Here is the original link on the outline nevertheless, just because you still have to do even more clicks on the guardian : https://outline.com/Ba2kkF https://outline.com/Ba2kkF
Alyan 7y ago
I would like to add, quoting from times: “Other changes issued in the decrees allow women to register a marriage, divorce or child’s birth and to be issued official family documents” IANAL but I am a Saudi citizen and it seems male consent to leave prison and abuse shelter may be included in these changes. I have seen Saudi citizens speculate about both possibilities so it is not clear yet. Only one of the four major Islamic Sunni madhhaps allow females to marry without consent. Saudi Arabia follows a different madhhap. So if I were to speculate I don’t think it will happen soon because it may risk a revolt as I believe most citizens are religious or at least conservative. However, I also did not expect the current changes to happen this soon for the same reasons so I may be wrong.
- lioeters 7y ago
  Thank you, that's really interesting to hear a first-person perspective about the cultural changes. > [Allowing] females to marry without consent..may risk a revolt.. Wow, I didn't realize how strongly people (I guess in this case mainly men) felt about this issue. I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner, as it relates to fundamental values of religion, gender roles, and I suppose power dynamics in society.
  - grumpydba 7y ago
    > I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though...
    - viraptor 7y ago
      Sounds like one of those "do you want to talk about absolutes, or practical solutions" cases. Sometimes the only options you get are "terrible" or "slightly less terrible". Unless you're up for taking part in a violent revolution, that is.
      - whiddershins 7y ago
        Violent Revolution, by definition, is going to fall somewhere on the terrible scale.
    - mikekchar 7y ago
      Change that is successful and actually changes behaviour is preferable. It is surprisingly easy to look at cultural behaviour, find something that should be changed and pick a method of change that has no hope of success. "But they should just <insert whatever you want here>" does not work if they just won't <whatever>. From one perspective things seem clear, but from the perspective of the people involved it may be far from clear. I've seen well meaning foreign expats set back improvements in their work place by galvanising the opinion of all the locals against them -- even the people who were meant to be helped by the change. You need to tread exceptionally carefully, take your wins where you can take them and wait for another day when you can not win. It's incredibly frustrating when people ignore this truth and destroy huge amounts of work progressing forward. Edit: missing "not"
Alyan 7y ago
It seems that as I suspected requiring consent for leaving prison or abuse shelter was also abolished. https://twitter.com/dralmuneef/status/1157139494765645826?s=21 https://twitter.com/dralmuneef/status/1157139494765645826?s=...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ackfoo 7y ago

A man said it. We all believed it. We asked for no corroboration; we obtained no evidence. And that's where we stopped. This is the monstrous injustice of our civilization. We organize the enslavement of over half the population based upon an unfounded idea. Then we pat ourselves on the back for slightly loosening the bonds of slavery. "Go slow," they say, "so as not to disrupt the order of things." So as not to disrupt the order of hateful men lying to maintain their own positions of control.

Konnstann 7y ago

It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago.

theandrewbailey 7y ago
The US military has been in Saudi Arabia for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sultan_Air_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sultan_Air_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhahran_Air_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhahran_Air_Base
- Konnstann 7y ago
  Having a military base and orchestrating regime changes are a little bit different.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    The military base is there to protect the regime. It’s easier to deal with a small monarchy with no transparency than a democracy. And they make for a good enemy of other local countries keeping just enough zest in the region for the weapons to keep flowing and the figureheads to keep toppling, but still allowing for a steady supply of oil. History of Modern Middle East by William Cleveland is a good resource: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/64594.A_History_of_the_Modern_Middle_East https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/64594.A_History_of_the_M...
    - selimthegrim 7y ago
      A Peace to End All Peace is good too
    - mywittyname 7y ago
      When people have democracies, they start asking for crazy things that are in their self-interest, such as mineral rights and ownership over their farmland.

devoply 7y ago

Bonesaw has done it again!

dang 7y ago
Please don't do this here.

D-Coder 7y ago

To quote a comment from other places, "Welcome to the 19th Century."