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You don't feel upset about how they were, in my opinion, defrauding you and the driver of the tip money? After I learned about what they were doing with tips I

You don't feel upset about how they were, in my opinion, defrauding you and the driver of the tip money? After I learned about what they were doing with tips I decided not to use them again, and considering how much competition there is I really haven't lost anything of value. This isn't meant to be a triggering comment. I'm genuinely curious to learn about other people's reactions to DoorDash's former tipping system.

anbop 7y ago
I don’t have a problem with it although I think it’s good that they changed it. If drivers complain “we’re not getting enough tip” and the company says “OK we guarantee your tips will be at least $5 on this order” that’s the behavior you get. The customer feels ripped off by a program that ostensibly benefited drivers to begin with.
jamiequint 7y ago
They weren't "defrauding the drivers of tip money" they were normalizing the variance in payments across deliveries by not directly paying the drivers tips and instead guaranteeing a minimum payment amount which was above the delivery fee. Once they modify their system and move to a system where drivers get 100% of the tips the drivers will probably see approximately the same payouts on average, just with higher variance across drivers. Basically what DoorDash was doing is the same as tip-pooling at a restaurant which isn't exactly a controversial practice.
- sanj 7y ago
  Tip pooling makes sense because a restaurant experience is composed of the work of multiple players in the front/back of the house. DoorDash drivers don’t rely on other drivers. So why should a good driver compensate for the poor tips of a bad one?
  - ericmason 7y ago
    Maybe because the tip has at least as much to do with the customer as it does the driver.
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    Why do you expect bad delivery drivers to have poorer tips? I've never adjusted a tip based on the quality of the driver, because I can't measure that. Anyone can hand over a bag of food, so the only thing I see is how long they took. But whether they arrive quickly or slowly is probably the kitchen's fault, or luck of overlapping orders. Realistically, I have nothing to rate them on.
  - milesskorpen 7y ago
    There's not a lot of evidence that tips actually reliably vary in response to quality (easy to Google, but stuff like https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1036&context=articles https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?refe... ). Tipping frequently matters more about the tippers mood, the tip-receiver's race and gender, and (of course) order size.
  - jamiequint 7y ago
    This isn't like restaurant tipping where bad service gets 10% and good service gets 25%+ It's mostly bi-modal, drivers frequently don't get tipped at all. In this scenario reducing variance makes sense because (as many other commenters here note) unless the experience is overwhelmingly bad the tip generally has more to do with the receiver of the order rather than the driver.
- aianus 7y ago
  The entire point of the tipping system is to have a high variance. The promise, but not guarantee, of tips is what is supposed to incentivize better service.
  - r1nkgrl 7y ago
    But in the case of the DoorDash, if you tip using the app, you tip long before you know what the service will be. It's like walking blindfolded into a restaurant and putting your tip in the hostesses hand before you even see any of the staff, or have any indication of service.
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      That's true, although to be fair, there's only so much a delivery driver can do service-wise compared to a waiter. Your only interaction with the driver is picking up the order. The driver isn't responsible for the time the restaurant takes to get the food to them, and isn't even entirely responsible for the time it takes to get the food from the restaurant to you -- there's traffic, weather, and the possibility that DoorDash demands they batch orders (something I've heard but haven't confirmed). I'm not sure it's fair to hold a third-party delivery driver responsible for the correctness of the order, either, rather than the restaurant.
      - dtparr 7y ago
        It seems like what you're arguing is that delivery drivers should not be a tipped class, but instead just guaranteed a higher rate.
        chipotle_coyote 7y ago
        Well, my actual thought was more that adjusting tips based on perceived delivery driver performance is somewhat unfair based on all the things beyond the driver's control. (I'm not sure if the downvotes I got are from people who think I was arguing "never tip drivers" and are mad because they think I'm a jerk, or people who realized I was more arguing "don't undertip drivers" and are mad because they think I'm saying undertippers are jerks, and fair, I am.) Anyway, yes, actually: I think there's a good argument to be made for a higher wage for delivery drivers -- and all waitstaff -- that makes their earnings less dependent on tips. If people want to tip for exceptional service, that's fine, but there are a surprising number of people who treat tips today as if they're only for exceptional service, will cut tips in half or even to zero for things beyond the server's control (e.g., the restaurant will not accept your clearly expired coupon), etc.
dheera 7y ago
I just give $0 tips through the DoorDash website (and you have to select $0 TWICE, at both the top and bottom of the checkout page, by the way) and give them tips in cash. That way DoorDash provides at least a partial matching contribution to my tip instead of eating from my tip.
xenocyon 7y ago
Personally: having learned of their scummy practices, I will not be supporting DoorDash or Instacart ever again, regardless of whether they change policy now in response to being exposed. Why so unforgiving? Because you can't deter unethical behavior by merely asking for a perpetrator to discontinue the unethical behavior if/when exposed. The expected value of a penalty needs to exceed the financial reward of the behavior it is meant to punish. Furthermore, I don't trust companies who are likely to be unethical the moment someone isn't looking.
- lancesells 7y ago
  I just did the same with Amazon since they have the same tip practices as DoorDash. That and reading about the Ring Alarm system being sold by law enforcement it just put me over the edge. Can I avoid AWS? No, but I can certainly not spend my own money directly on any of their services.
  - maksimum 7y ago
    Have you been tipping on your AWS bill? Or the package delivery workers? (What does Amazon have to do with this?)
    - nvr219 7y ago
      I'm an aws dev, if you like route 53 please check out my pateron link thanks for your support ;-)
- jmeyer2k 7y ago
  I drove for DoorDash and I absolutely prefer the guaranteed amount with them keeping the tips. First of all, people tip beforehand so it's not based on quality of service anyway. Second of all, it makes DoorDash a steady stream of income instead of hoping that you'll be tipped enough. Most people don't tip and if the tip is large enough, you do receive the tip.
  - femto113 7y ago

anbop 7y ago

I don’t have a problem with it although I think it’s good that they changed it. If drivers complain “we’re not getting enough tip” and the company says “OK we guarantee your tips will be at least $5 on this order” that’s the behavior you get. The customer feels ripped off by a program that ostensibly benefited drivers to begin with.

jamiequint 7y ago

They weren't "defrauding the drivers of tip money" they were normalizing the variance in payments across deliveries by not directly paying the drivers tips and instead guaranteeing a minimum payment amount which was above the delivery fee. Once they modify their system and move to a system where drivers get 100% of the tips the drivers will probably see approximately the same payouts on average, just with higher variance across drivers. Basically what DoorDash was doing is the same as tip-pooling at a restaurant which isn't exactly a controversial practice.

sanj 7y ago
Tip pooling makes sense because a restaurant experience is composed of the work of multiple players in the front/back of the house. DoorDash drivers don’t rely on other drivers. So why should a good driver compensate for the poor tips of a bad one?
- ericmason 7y ago
  Maybe because the tip has at least as much to do with the customer as it does the driver.
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  Why do you expect bad delivery drivers to have poorer tips? I've never adjusted a tip based on the quality of the driver, because I can't measure that. Anyone can hand over a bag of food, so the only thing I see is how long they took. But whether they arrive quickly or slowly is probably the kitchen's fault, or luck of overlapping orders. Realistically, I have nothing to rate them on.
- milesskorpen 7y ago
  There's not a lot of evidence that tips actually reliably vary in response to quality (easy to Google, but stuff like https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1036&context=articles https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?refe... ). Tipping frequently matters more about the tippers mood, the tip-receiver's race and gender, and (of course) order size.
- jamiequint 7y ago
  This isn't like restaurant tipping where bad service gets 10% and good service gets 25%+ It's mostly bi-modal, drivers frequently don't get tipped at all. In this scenario reducing variance makes sense because (as many other commenters here note) unless the experience is overwhelmingly bad the tip generally has more to do with the receiver of the order rather than the driver.
aianus 7y ago
The entire point of the tipping system is to have a high variance. The promise, but not guarantee, of tips is what is supposed to incentivize better service.
- r1nkgrl 7y ago
  But in the case of the DoorDash, if you tip using the app, you tip long before you know what the service will be. It's like walking blindfolded into a restaurant and putting your tip in the hostesses hand before you even see any of the staff, or have any indication of service.
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    That's true, although to be fair, there's only so much a delivery driver can do service-wise compared to a waiter. Your only interaction with the driver is picking up the order. The driver isn't responsible for the time the restaurant takes to get the food to them, and isn't even entirely responsible for the time it takes to get the food from the restaurant to you -- there's traffic, weather, and the possibility that DoorDash demands they batch orders (something I've heard but haven't confirmed). I'm not sure it's fair to hold a third-party delivery driver responsible for the correctness of the order, either, rather than the restaurant.
    - dtparr 7y ago
      It seems like what you're arguing is that delivery drivers should not be a tipped class, but instead just guaranteed a higher rate.
      - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
        Well, my actual thought was more that adjusting tips based on perceived delivery driver performance is somewhat unfair based on all the things beyond the driver's control. (I'm not sure if the downvotes I got are from people who think I was arguing "never tip drivers" and are mad because they think I'm a jerk, or people who realized I was more arguing "don't undertip drivers" and are mad because they think I'm saying undertippers are jerks, and fair, I am.) Anyway, yes, actually: I think there's a good argument to be made for a higher wage for delivery drivers -- and all waitstaff -- that makes their earnings less dependent on tips. If people want to tip for exceptional service, that's fine, but there are a surprising number of people who treat tips today as if they're only for exceptional service, will cut tips in half or even to zero for things beyond the server's control (e.g., the restaurant will not accept your clearly expired coupon), etc.

dheera 7y ago

I just give $0 tips through the DoorDash website (and you have to select $0 TWICE, at both the top and bottom of the checkout page, by the way) and give them tips in cash. That way DoorDash provides at least a partial matching contribution to my tip instead of eating from my tip.

xenocyon 7y ago

Personally: having learned of their scummy practices, I will not be supporting DoorDash or Instacart ever again, regardless of whether they change policy now in response to being exposed. Why so unforgiving? Because you can't deter unethical behavior by merely asking for a perpetrator to discontinue the unethical behavior if/when exposed. The expected value of a penalty needs to exceed the financial reward of the behavior it is meant to punish. Furthermore, I don't trust companies who are likely to be unethical the moment someone isn't looking.

lancesells 7y ago
I just did the same with Amazon since they have the same tip practices as DoorDash. That and reading about the Ring Alarm system being sold by law enforcement it just put me over the edge. Can I avoid AWS? No, but I can certainly not spend my own money directly on any of their services.
- maksimum 7y ago
  Have you been tipping on your AWS bill? Or the package delivery workers? (What does Amazon have to do with this?)
  - nvr219 7y ago
    I'm an aws dev, if you like route 53 please check out my pateron link thanks for your support ;-)
jmeyer2k 7y ago
I drove for DoorDash and I absolutely prefer the guaranteed amount with them keeping the tips. First of all, people tip beforehand so it's not based on quality of service anyway. Second of all, it makes DoorDash a steady stream of income instead of hoping that you'll be tipped enough. Most people don't tip and if the tip is large enough, you do receive the tip.
- femto113 7y ago