6 ms·

Something like 1 in 4 transgender women are also autistic. If this study holds any water that might be an interesting investigation.

danbolt 7y ago
Interesting, I had no idea the rate was so high. I’ve seen one study[1] that sampled for ~7%, but not 25%. Do you have a link I could read? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/
- majos 7y ago
  Not parent, but closest thing I can find is the Kaltiala-Heino et al. study [1], found from p7 in this literature review [2]. There it's summarized as "26% of those who had experienced gender dysphoria had previous diagnosis of ASD". But that study has only 47 people (none adults), all drawn from a pair of Finnish hospitals. It looks like an outlier among the others, which suggest something more like 5%. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0.568182 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0.... [2] https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(15)00004-9/pdf https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(15)00004-9/pd...
  - danbolt 7y ago
    Thanks for posting the studies. This might be considered bad faith but the parent comment struck me as anecdotal and I wanted to press where those sources were coming from.
    - danharaj 7y ago
      I didn't take your question as bad faith, I appreciate it actually, but I didn't have time during the work day to cite sources. The one posted is the most scientific one I know of. I have seen self reported surveys of transgender communities that hit numbers that high, but that's obviously not scientifically rigorous. Food for thought tho. I keep myself informed on transgender issues because I have transgender people near and dear to me and I have transgender colleagues at work. In my personal life many of the transgender women I know identify as on the spectrum, some more intensely than others. 1 in 4 sounds right anecdotally as well. Anecdotally, I think it might be true that younger people in general are more receptive to identifying as autistic while people my age or older might be averse to it even with the same experiences.
  - tapland 7y ago
    Thank you for this. My fiancée is the only woman with diagnosed autism I've met in real life. She has gender dysphoria and when she joined a few online chats for advice the few people she's befriended that are also either women or trans men are all diagnosed with ASD.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  Interesting, even at 7%, this autistic population could be creating the unfavorable perceptions of trans women and confirming people’s pre-existing beliefs of mental health issues because enough of their quirky or negative experiences with trans women are “just” with autistic people As in, one circumstance is being conflated with another circumstance and this is counterproductive for everyone
  - tick_tock_tick 7y ago
    On the other hand what if it's not just conflated circumstances and there is some kind of interaction there. When there is an unusually large correlation between two unexpected things it normally merits further investigation.
    - rolltiide 7y ago
      Not inaccurate. People should research this further. Good luck finding a way to say it.
  - Raphmedia 7y ago
    > because enough of their quirky or negative experiences with trans women are “just” with autistic people While I hate to agree with this, it is also my opinion as a transgender woman myself. I also believe that the percentage of trans people who are also part of the spectrum and who are in online support groups is even higher than 7%. Often, they are quirky people who have difficulty expressing their opinions, points of view and identity. They often seem rude and frustrated. They are very passionate about the subject of gender identity and will make far-fetched statements and present them as facts. This results in very embarrassing interactions. Personally, I can't stand their quirks and I often have negative experiences with them. These users will take up all the space and drive other users away. My favorite Facebook support group is the result of two of these "migrations". The first group was huge and became "unstable", so a few people created a second one. After a while, some of the users from the first group found the second one so a third group was created. This group is set to invitation only and has around twenty users. Many people approach me as if I was autistic, which I am not and it is frustrating at best. This is very taboo and most people will not talk about it. You cannot deny support to people on the spectrum, but I wish they had their own spaces. I would bet that most of the socially awkward encounters people have with trans individuals is just that. It's people interacting with people with autism. Being transgender is about finding and expressing your gender identity. Puberty is always awkward for anyone involved at first but most people grow out of it and become adults and this is no different for a second puberty. Being stuck in-between, unable to express one's identity in a socially acceptable way is not a symptom of gender dysphoria, it is a symptom of the autistic spectrum disorder. If people were more aware of this, they could act accordingly. Just because someone is on the spectrum doesn't mean that they are invalid in their trans identity. It simply means that they have their own needs and require a different mindset. I understand that this is going to come across as very controversial. It is not my goal to belittle anyone and this is merely my anecdotal point of view as someone from within those communities.
nicoburns 7y ago
I read an article somewhere claiming that estrogen via Hormone Replacement Therapy actually reduces the symptoms of autism. It wasn't a scientific study, but it was written by someone who claimed to personally know several people who had observed this effect.
- mffnbs 7y ago
  I find that difficult to believe. Estrogen isn't known to cause large behavioral changes like you've described. The changes in hormones can result in some emotional changes, but I cannot see how they would reduce symptoms of autism.
  - derefr 7y ago
    Symptoms of being a high-functioning autistic—as perceived by others—include an inability to empathize with peers or with hypotheticals of “natural” human responses. But one obvious confounder for this symptom is that you’re comparing with the wrong peers. Being a woman but not liking the things women like or having the same emotional responses that women tend to have (because, instead, you like the things men like and have the same emotional responses that men have), could get you (incorrectly) labelled as autistic, when all you’re actually experiencing is gender dysphasia.
    - mffnbs 7y ago
      So these aren't symptoms that the individual is exhibiting but symptoms that are perceived differently by others? I could definitely see that being the case but I also feel as if that's moved the goalpost on what the parent said.
    - nostrebored 7y ago
      So now men and women have inherently different interests and emotional responses that should result in not only misdiagnosis of autism, but actual diagnosis of gender dysphoria?
      - 7y ago
aidenn0 7y ago
Two of the three openly trans women I know have ASD siblings; I hadn't ever thought about the connection before.
nabnob 7y ago
A lot of people with autism also have sensory issues, maybe that is a factor in dysphoria?
xkcd-sucks 7y ago
ASD diagnosis of a reasonably functional person is basically whether they're weird or not. For example, I picked one up almost by accident when I nit-picked a psychologist's choice of wording and then explained my reasoning when questioned about it. If someone publicly asserts they're trapped in the body of the wrong sex, and does not back down when challenged, might this be sufficiently weird to be ASD by definition? Especially given the awkwardness of violating gender norms. A comparison between ASD diagnosis rates in places where trans identity is culturally normalized might shed some light on it, but as ASD diagnosis is also pretty cultural it might be tricky.
- username90 7y ago
  A psychologist tried to put an Autism diagnosis on me as well, yet I am extremely good at reading people. So I believe that Autism as diagnosed is not just a spectrum, but a normal distribution where both tail ends are bad. A person who can't read others feelings will obviously not be good at dealing with others. However a person who has too much empathy won't be able to properly cope with the pain from social situations and will therefore spend most of their energy trying to keep the empathy in check. This results in similar problems and even "Meltdowns" when they fail to cope. Both sides get the same autism diagnosis since both of them are better at dealing with things than people, but they are completely different. For me I felt the diagnosis would hurt more than help since it didn't properly describe me, so I asked for a proper test and alternatives. I got ADD and social phobia, there were no signs of proper autism but I could have gotten a diagnosis from the original psychologists hunch.
Footkerchief 7y ago
Further reading: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-...

danbolt 7y ago

Interesting, I had no idea the rate was so high. I’ve seen one study[1] that sampled for ~7%, but not 25%. Do you have a link I could read? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904453/

majos 7y ago
Not parent, but closest thing I can find is the Kaltiala-Heino et al. study [1], found from p7 in this literature review [2]. There it's summarized as "26% of those who had experienced gender dysphoria had previous diagnosis of ASD". But that study has only 47 people (none adults), all drawn from a pair of Finnish hospitals. It looks like an outlier among the others, which suggest something more like 5%. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0.568182 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4396787/#!po=0.... [2] https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(15)00004-9/pdf https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S2050-0521(15)00004-9/pd...
- danbolt 7y ago
  Thanks for posting the studies. This might be considered bad faith but the parent comment struck me as anecdotal and I wanted to press where those sources were coming from.
  - danharaj 7y ago
    I didn't take your question as bad faith, I appreciate it actually, but I didn't have time during the work day to cite sources. The one posted is the most scientific one I know of. I have seen self reported surveys of transgender communities that hit numbers that high, but that's obviously not scientifically rigorous. Food for thought tho. I keep myself informed on transgender issues because I have transgender people near and dear to me and I have transgender colleagues at work. In my personal life many of the transgender women I know identify as on the spectrum, some more intensely than others. 1 in 4 sounds right anecdotally as well. Anecdotally, I think it might be true that younger people in general are more receptive to identifying as autistic while people my age or older might be averse to it even with the same experiences.
- tapland 7y ago
  Thank you for this. My fiancée is the only woman with diagnosed autism I've met in real life. She has gender dysphoria and when she joined a few online chats for advice the few people she's befriended that are also either women or trans men are all diagnosed with ASD.
rolltiide 7y ago
Interesting, even at 7%, this autistic population could be creating the unfavorable perceptions of trans women and confirming people’s pre-existing beliefs of mental health issues because enough of their quirky or negative experiences with trans women are “just” with autistic people As in, one circumstance is being conflated with another circumstance and this is counterproductive for everyone
- tick_tock_tick 7y ago
  On the other hand what if it's not just conflated circumstances and there is some kind of interaction there. When there is an unusually large correlation between two unexpected things it normally merits further investigation.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    Not inaccurate. People should research this further. Good luck finding a way to say it.
- Raphmedia 7y ago
  > because enough of their quirky or negative experiences with trans women are “just” with autistic people While I hate to agree with this, it is also my opinion as a transgender woman myself. I also believe that the percentage of trans people who are also part of the spectrum and who are in online support groups is even higher than 7%. Often, they are quirky people who have difficulty expressing their opinions, points of view and identity. They often seem rude and frustrated. They are very passionate about the subject of gender identity and will make far-fetched statements and present them as facts. This results in very embarrassing interactions. Personally, I can't stand their quirks and I often have negative experiences with them. These users will take up all the space and drive other users away. My favorite Facebook support group is the result of two of these "migrations". The first group was huge and became "unstable", so a few people created a second one. After a while, some of the users from the first group found the second one so a third group was created. This group is set to invitation only and has around twenty users. Many people approach me as if I was autistic, which I am not and it is frustrating at best. This is very taboo and most people will not talk about it. You cannot deny support to people on the spectrum, but I wish they had their own spaces. I would bet that most of the socially awkward encounters people have with trans individuals is just that. It's people interacting with people with autism. Being transgender is about finding and expressing your gender identity. Puberty is always awkward for anyone involved at first but most people grow out of it and become adults and this is no different for a second puberty. Being stuck in-between, unable to express one's identity in a socially acceptable way is not a symptom of gender dysphoria, it is a symptom of the autistic spectrum disorder. If people were more aware of this, they could act accordingly. Just because someone is on the spectrum doesn't mean that they are invalid in their trans identity. It simply means that they have their own needs and require a different mindset. I understand that this is going to come across as very controversial. It is not my goal to belittle anyone and this is merely my anecdotal point of view as someone from within those communities.

nicoburns 7y ago

I read an article somewhere claiming that estrogen via Hormone Replacement Therapy actually reduces the symptoms of autism. It wasn't a scientific study, but it was written by someone who claimed to personally know several people who had observed this effect.

mffnbs 7y ago
I find that difficult to believe. Estrogen isn't known to cause large behavioral changes like you've described. The changes in hormones can result in some emotional changes, but I cannot see how they would reduce symptoms of autism.
- derefr 7y ago
  Symptoms of being a high-functioning autistic—as perceived by others—include an inability to empathize with peers or with hypotheticals of “natural” human responses. But one obvious confounder for this symptom is that you’re comparing with the wrong peers. Being a woman but not liking the things women like or having the same emotional responses that women tend to have (because, instead, you like the things men like and have the same emotional responses that men have), could get you (incorrectly) labelled as autistic, when all you’re actually experiencing is gender dysphasia.
  - mffnbs 7y ago
    So these aren't symptoms that the individual is exhibiting but symptoms that are perceived differently by others? I could definitely see that being the case but I also feel as if that's moved the goalpost on what the parent said.
  - nostrebored 7y ago
    So now men and women have inherently different interests and emotional responses that should result in not only misdiagnosis of autism, but actual diagnosis of gender dysphoria?
    - 7y ago

aidenn0 7y ago

Two of the three openly trans women I know have ASD siblings; I hadn't ever thought about the connection before.

nabnob 7y ago

A lot of people with autism also have sensory issues, maybe that is a factor in dysphoria?

xkcd-sucks 7y ago

ASD diagnosis of a reasonably functional person is basically whether they're weird or not. For example, I picked one up almost by accident when I nit-picked a psychologist's choice of wording and then explained my reasoning when questioned about it. If someone publicly asserts they're trapped in the body of the wrong sex, and does not back down when challenged, might this be sufficiently weird to be ASD by definition? Especially given the awkwardness of violating gender norms. A comparison between ASD diagnosis rates in places where trans identity is culturally normalized might shed some light on it, but as ASD diagnosis is also pretty cultural it might be tricky.

username90 7y ago
A psychologist tried to put an Autism diagnosis on me as well, yet I am extremely good at reading people. So I believe that Autism as diagnosed is not just a spectrum, but a normal distribution where both tail ends are bad. A person who can't read others feelings will obviously not be good at dealing with others. However a person who has too much empathy won't be able to properly cope with the pain from social situations and will therefore spend most of their energy trying to keep the empathy in check. This results in similar problems and even "Meltdowns" when they fail to cope. Both sides get the same autism diagnosis since both of them are better at dealing with things than people, but they are completely different. For me I felt the diagnosis would hurt more than help since it didn't properly describe me, so I asked for a proper test and alternatives. I got ADD and social phobia, there were no signs of proper autism but I could have gotten a diagnosis from the original psychologists hunch.

Footkerchief 7y ago

Further reading: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-...