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I didn’t believe it was about energy use. Cotton bags don’t kill fish and break into micro plastics. I’m yet to see a cotton bag floating down the Thames. Like

I didn’t believe it was about energy use. Cotton bags don’t kill fish and break into micro plastics. I’m yet to see a cotton bag floating down the Thames. Like most of my friends, I’ve taken to carrying a rucksack around, with an additional bag-for-life inside. I don’t recall the last time I had to buy an additional bag. I guess I’ve saved around 300 bags in the past year.

scotty79 7y ago
> I’m yet to see a cotton bag floating down the Thames. When they are widly used you will. I've used canvas bag from Tesco. It fell apart after few years. I definitely did not use it 7000 times. When plastic bags were free I was reusing them as trash bags if I collected too many of them. Now I'm buying dedicated trashbags. I definitely spend more on plastic bags then I used to. I can only hope part of this money goes towards environmental efforts.
- MAGZine 7y ago
  Selection bias... I used those bags for garbage too, but the number of bags I received to the number I used for that purpose was not comparable. There was already an abundance. PlanetMoney said you needed to use a bag 131 times to be equivalent, not 7k. I see numbers floating around but no sources. In any case. Reusing a bag not only reduces the bag usage the first time it's used but every subsequent time too. A reusable bags isn't preventing a single plastic bag, it's preventing at least one, probably two, maybe three and possibly four plastic bags each use considering how durable and large they are. Which is to say, you could fit (at most) two double bags of groceries into a single reusable.
- jasonzemos 7y ago
  > I’m yet to see a cotton bag floating down the Thames. >> When they are widly used you will. But all those cotton bags you see quickly disintegrate back into the biome, while the plastic ones stay plastic for a million years...
  - scotty79 7y ago
    My canvas bag had thick plastic lining. You'd definitely would see it. Selling point of those is multiple use not biodegradability.
    - lorenzhs 7y ago
      I don't think anybody's claiming that canvas bags are the answer. As you said, they contain a lot of plastic. The comment you replied to was about cotton bags, not canvas.
      - scotty79 7y ago
        Oh. I thought they were the same thing. I had one that looked pretty much like this: https://m.indiamart.com/proddetail/tesco-shopping-bag-3687093373.html https://m.indiamart.com/proddetail/tesco-shopping-bag-368709... Is it canvas or cotton?
        lorenzhs 7y ago
        Hard to tell what it's made of from the tiny image, but the cotton bags I know are 100% cotton (except for the print), like this: https://www.sinplastico.com/3742-large_default/organic-cotton-reusable-shopping-tote-bag-be-part-of-the-change.jpg https://www.sinplastico.com/3742-large_default/organic-cotto... while canvas bags are usually made from cotton + PVC.
- patall 7y ago
  But that's just a convenience issue. There are some many other plastic bags still around that may not be as flexible as the generic fruit and vegetable bag but can still be used for most types of waste. For example I have been using cereal bags for the same task and while they do not fit as nicely in the trash container and you have to be a little more careful when you throw something in, they absolutely work too. Although in the long term we should maybe get rid of the cereal bag too and just use a multi-use hard plastic container that you have to clean with water after use.
H8crilA 7y ago
As much as I hate plastics in water - it's the rising temperature that we have to primarily care about. +5*C will bring devastation to the planet and humanity. The impact of warming is not comparable to the impact of pollution (be it air, water or land pollution).
- lorenzhs 7y ago
  It's a false equivalence to claim that we can only care about one but not the other. Plastic pollution is threatening entire species and food chains. We need to tackle both problems simultaneously. Not to mention that everyone just assumes that fewer plastic bags sold = many more cotton bags produced without providing any numbers. Maybe plastic bags are mostly being reused more? Maybe people remember to bring a cotton bag they already owned anyway to the store more often? Also, that 7100x number is for ozone. For climate impact, it's 52x, and that number doesn't include disposal. See hannob's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20581751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20581751 and the point in the tweet chain here: https://twitter.com/arthurhcyip/status/1115749691566821376 https://twitter.com/arthurhcyip/status/1115749691566821376
  - H8crilA 7y ago
    I'm trusting the upper level comment on the numbers: > Studies have shown multiple times [1], [2] that cotton bags require far more energy and water to produce than almost everything else and need to be reused circa 7.100 times for non organic and twenty-thousand times for organic cotton until they surpass plastic bags. And yeah sure, both is better than one. But one of those two is much more important. One will remove , say, ~10% of species and humans, the other will remove, say, ~50% of species and humans.
    - lorenzhs 7y ago
      Sorry, I edited my comment after/while you posted yours. The 7100x number is totally misleading because it's the maximum over all factors they considered, which turned out to be ozone depletion. But the study didn't communicate that well and apparently nobody who reported on it saw the footnote. The number of reuses required to get the same climate impact is 52x, excluding disposal. See the last paragraph of my edited comment.

scotty79 7y ago

> I’m yet to see a cotton bag floating down the Thames. When they are widly used you will. I've used canvas bag from Tesco. It fell apart after few years. I definitely did not use it 7000 times. When plastic bags were free I was reusing them as trash bags if I collected too many of them. Now I'm buying dedicated trashbags. I definitely spend more on plastic bags then I used to. I can only hope part of this money goes towards environmental efforts.

MAGZine 7y ago
Selection bias... I used those bags for garbage too, but the number of bags I received to the number I used for that purpose was not comparable. There was already an abundance. PlanetMoney said you needed to use a bag 131 times to be equivalent, not 7k. I see numbers floating around but no sources. In any case. Reusing a bag not only reduces the bag usage the first time it's used but every subsequent time too. A reusable bags isn't preventing a single plastic bag, it's preventing at least one, probably two, maybe three and possibly four plastic bags each use considering how durable and large they are. Which is to say, you could fit (at most) two double bags of groceries into a single reusable.
jasonzemos 7y ago
> I’m yet to see a cotton bag floating down the Thames. >> When they are widly used you will. But all those cotton bags you see quickly disintegrate back into the biome, while the plastic ones stay plastic for a million years...
- scotty79 7y ago
  My canvas bag had thick plastic lining. You'd definitely would see it. Selling point of those is multiple use not biodegradability.
  - lorenzhs 7y ago
    I don't think anybody's claiming that canvas bags are the answer. As you said, they contain a lot of plastic. The comment you replied to was about cotton bags, not canvas.
    - scotty79 7y ago
      Oh. I thought they were the same thing. I had one that looked pretty much like this: https://m.indiamart.com/proddetail/tesco-shopping-bag-3687093373.html https://m.indiamart.com/proddetail/tesco-shopping-bag-368709... Is it canvas or cotton?
      - lorenzhs 7y ago
        Hard to tell what it's made of from the tiny image, but the cotton bags I know are 100% cotton (except for the print), like this: https://www.sinplastico.com/3742-large_default/organic-cotton-reusable-shopping-tote-bag-be-part-of-the-change.jpg https://www.sinplastico.com/3742-large_default/organic-cotto... while canvas bags are usually made from cotton + PVC.
patall 7y ago
But that's just a convenience issue. There are some many other plastic bags still around that may not be as flexible as the generic fruit and vegetable bag but can still be used for most types of waste. For example I have been using cereal bags for the same task and while they do not fit as nicely in the trash container and you have to be a little more careful when you throw something in, they absolutely work too. Although in the long term we should maybe get rid of the cereal bag too and just use a multi-use hard plastic container that you have to clean with water after use.

H8crilA 7y ago

As much as I hate plastics in water - it's the rising temperature that we have to primarily care about. +5*C will bring devastation to the planet and humanity. The impact of warming is not comparable to the impact of pollution (be it air, water or land pollution).

lorenzhs 7y ago
It's a false equivalence to claim that we can only care about one but not the other. Plastic pollution is threatening entire species and food chains. We need to tackle both problems simultaneously. Not to mention that everyone just assumes that fewer plastic bags sold = many more cotton bags produced without providing any numbers. Maybe plastic bags are mostly being reused more? Maybe people remember to bring a cotton bag they already owned anyway to the store more often? Also, that 7100x number is for ozone. For climate impact, it's 52x, and that number doesn't include disposal. See hannob's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20581751 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20581751 and the point in the tweet chain here: https://twitter.com/arthurhcyip/status/1115749691566821376 https://twitter.com/arthurhcyip/status/1115749691566821376
- H8crilA 7y ago
  I'm trusting the upper level comment on the numbers: > Studies have shown multiple times [1], [2] that cotton bags require far more energy and water to produce than almost everything else and need to be reused circa 7.100 times for non organic and twenty-thousand times for organic cotton until they surpass plastic bags. And yeah sure, both is better than one. But one of those two is much more important. One will remove , say, ~10% of species and humans, the other will remove, say, ~50% of species and humans.
  - lorenzhs 7y ago
    Sorry, I edited my comment after/while you posted yours. The 7100x number is totally misleading because it's the maximum over all factors they considered, which turned out to be ozone depletion. But the study didn't communicate that well and apparently nobody who reported on it saw the footnote. The number of reuses required to get the same climate impact is 52x, excluding disposal. See the last paragraph of my edited comment.